Window beyond repair - volunteers?

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O2Annie
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Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by O2Annie »

I have my first - and hopefully (probably) last irreparable window.
Working on the attic windows, there are 2 side-by-side windows on the West side of the house. These are 2 of 3 single sash "openable" (is that a word?) in the house, the rest are all double hung.
So, the bottom rail on one of them is completely rotted through and I am not sure what to do.

Since these sit side by side, I am worried that they will not look right if one is rebuilt and the other is original. I am NOT a wood worker or crafts master of any sort, so anything fancy I will need to hire someone to do.

The top rail and stiles are probably ok - although the mortise does have some signs of rot around it.

Is there any chance of cutting the bottom rail in half - separating the rotted exterior side from the OK interior side - and joining the old with new to create a repaired bottom rail?

This area doesn't have much by the way of carpenters who appreciate salvaging original windows, and most look at me funny when I start talking about the ideas I have. I can almost hear them thinking "this crazy lady just needs to order some nice plastic replacement windows and let this old rotten stuff go" :eh:

I am going to try and insert links to pictures of the window in question - for some reason I can't get photos to download on my computer and this is too wordy for me to try and write up from my phone (where my photos originate).

This should link to a picture of the inside:
https://goo.gl/photos/tSRYWnCDbDw9vMps6

An the rotted exterior side:
https://goo.gl/photos/5cWWWFus8FiqKAyc6

One mortise:
https://goo.gl/photos/ucdvRsoWQMJQkKP57

Here you can see the tenon is totally gone:
https://goo.gl/photos/e8UZHDmcpe3k581N8

The other mortise and tenon...:
https://goo.gl/photos/1Q2pRjfEfWFtcCvGA

An here is where they will sit side -by side (please don't pick on my crudely home made storms):
https://goo.gl/photos/JpHCtQnk4WbiqVKaA

Maybe someone can make suggestions or volunteer to have me ship it to them to see what they could do :angel: ? (well, I would pay so not totally a volunteer thing)

I sure hope these links work...

Thanks for any help and/or suggestions!

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O2Annie
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Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by O2Annie »

Oooh, I'm super excited the links look like they are working!
I did fix the twin window - here is a picture of that one after stripping, before I put the shellac finish on:
https://goo.gl/photos/cPPf5GZqUjE1bGpH9

With finish:

https://goo.gl/photos/2uteRs6ckojZSbmPA

Have to show off the pretty hardware (I LOVE that this detail was in the unfininshed attic!)
https://goo.gl/photos/cqs75Dd35nryskXf6

And the exterior side:
https://goo.gl/photos/G5f8vGJZQjkcS33q7

There was some surface issues with this one - channeling from the weather - there were no storms on the any of the attic windows as long as we have lived here. I used some P.C. woody putty and hardener and now there are the fancy new home made storms so hopefully it will hold up...

Look out, now that I know I can link to pictures I might get photo-crazy!

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AlsatianND
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Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by AlsatianND »

Ripping out the rot and joining the remaining good with new wood is way too complicated. Don't sell your local craftspeople short. You're not looking for a contractor or carpenter. You're looking for a cabinet maker. Cabinet makers have the right machines in their shop and do joinery all day long. Find an easy going cabinetmaker who doesn't mind doing exactly what the customer specifies. You can have them do just the bottom rail, or a whole sash; doing a whole sash probably has the better value. The price will have a bit of a premium since it's such a small job, but that's the way it goes. There's also a guy on facebook who offers a life-time sash by mail. Haven't seen his products in person, but I have to admit I'm curious. Look him up on FB, Wood Window Makeover.

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Mick_VT
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Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by Mick_VT »

O2Annie wrote:
Look out, now that I know I can link to pictures I might get photo-crazy!


Nice! I would encourage you to upload them here rather than linking though for two reasons:

1. it is easier for folks to see them

2. If google changes it's site in some way all those links could easily break overnight. Not likely to happen now, but it is better for the pictures to persist for members browsing the site further down the road.


On the subject of your repair, it looks like a very straightforward job. You could also consider having a pair of brand new sashes made.
Mick...

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Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by Kashka-Kat »

Just to add to what's already been said, we have some local woodworker folks who specialise in making sash replacements for old windows - just bring in pieces and exact dimensions - I think I pd about $200 incl glass so not cheap, but still better than paying for a big shiny new replacement window from a box store. And considering the labor and skill involved -not unreasonable imho.

If you have some local glass or window repair places (not big box) or old fashioned neighborhood Ace hardware or something -ask them bc they will know the local n'hood craftspeople. If all else fails Ive seen some DIY wood storm instructions that arent like fine carpentry or anything, but serviceable - maybe for an attic it doesnt need to be much more than that?

Finally I will just note that I reconstructed a sash that had rotted corners - the entire bottom rail had come apart. I used Abatron (wood fill + liquid hardener) and long deck screws and it was a long "labor of love" process involving bulding up some layers, drilling holes to get the liquid wood hardener down deep, etc. This suggestion is assuming you have enough of it left to be able to reassemble, AND that you would be painting it.

phil
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Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by phil »

you can glue that and you can use epoxy and you can drill holes and insert metal pins or wood dowels. Yes you can trim off the bottom and splice in some new wood. That's all possible.

looking at the pics I'd just use that as a sample to make a new one and I agree that you might find a local cabinetmaker if that's affordable. I agree with mick it's better if you can post them to the site. if you click the button below that says "full editor" it should show a tab that says "add attachments" then click "add file" then you can add them from there by browsing for the file and selecting it.

You could spend a little on a tablesaw and maybe a router if you are so inclined, you could make them but it is a bit of a learning curve so you would just use cheap pine to try and if you spoil some of that who cares. Once you have the technique down use fir or something more rot resistant. You might buy some tools like a used tablesaw and router for the price of the labor.. If you have time to learn or if it interests you that would be my way.. I know myself I'd rather spend money on tools than labor if I have the choice.

Most windows used a profile and you can see that profile if you view the top or bottom edge. If you want to make more parts for an existing frame you might kind of need both cutters with the same profile and there may be some variations from one maker to another. You don't absolutely need the profile cutters to make a replacement , especially if you are happy without the fancy ogee near the glass. You can make the 4 boards fit with mortise and tenons without the special cutters, or a router. I'd say if you aren't' really that comfortable behind a tablesaw it's probably best to first do some easier projects as the mortise and tenons are a bit fussy. That said there are some Utube videos that explain the process quite well so watching a bunch of those to get tips is not a bad way to learn.. It can be done with only a tablesaw but if you have a good quality tablesaw it's easier to get more accurate work from it.

If you have an old house parts place you could check there to see if they might have something old and in better shape in your size? If one is available then that would likely be fast and cheaper. If the replacement is a tad oversize, trimming it down shouldn't be too hard. you could take some time to harass the plastic window guys to see what they do with the real windows that they replace with their new junk ;-) That might just be a fun pastime ;-)

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O2Annie
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Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by O2Annie »

Thank you all for the suggestions and input!

You all are *almost* making me think I could try doing something myself...
There is an old bottom sash that we found in the attic - judging by the size I am guessing it came out of the bathroom many years ago (the bath has had nothing but a tiny "new" window since we have been here).
The wood is the same type, and the bottom rail is the same width and depth - just about 5 inches longer. I wonder if I could take that sash apart and use the bottom rail? If I can get it taken apart without destroying it I would only have to make one tenon, since as far as I can tell it appears to be the same size...

If this didn't work I won't be out anything other than my time.

Regarding the pictures - my photos upload to google from my phone, and my computer has some issue where it won't let me download anything to files on the computer. Once that issue is fixed I will be able to attach files... I can do so if I post from my phone - but it is so much easier for me to type on the computer.
I will try to post a comment in this thread with the pictures from my phone in the same order as I had them linked in the first post.

Thanks again, you are all so helpful!

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O2Annie
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Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by O2Annie »

Rotted mortise and tenon:

Tenon is totally gone
Tenon is totally gone
IMG_20170330_134319256_HDR.jpg (896.64 KiB) Viewed 818 times


The whole bottom rail, exterior side
The whole bottom rail, exterior side
IMG_20170330_134247370.jpg (648.55 KiB) Viewed 818 times


Where they sit side by side...
Where they sit side by side...
IMG_20170402_115500340.jpg (673.98 KiB) Viewed 818 times


This is the one I repaired with wood hardener and putty
This is the one I repaired with wood hardener and putty
IMG_20170413_082217230_HDR.jpg (934.53 KiB) Viewed 818 times

The pretty hardware
The pretty hardware
IMG_20170413_082246513.jpg (1.82 MiB) Viewed 818 times


And the repaired exterior side
Exterior side repaired on the "good" window
Exterior side repaired on the "good" window
IMG_20170413_082333312_HDR.jpg (835.2 KiB) Viewed 818 times

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Mick_VT
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Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by Mick_VT »

O2Annie wrote:Thank you all for the suggestions and input!

You all are *almost* making me think I could try doing something myself...
There is an old bottom sash that we found in the attic - judging by the size I am guessing it came out of the bathroom many years ago (the bath has had nothing but a tiny "new" window since we have been here).
The wood is the same type, and the bottom rail is the same width and depth - just about 5 inches longer. I wonder if I could take that sash apart and use the bottom rail? If I can get it taken apart without destroying it I would only have to make one tenon, since as far as I can tell it appears to be the same size...


That sounds like a very good approach to me, you would simply need to cut a tenon - take it careful, use a tenon saw and you will find it quite easy
Mick...

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Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by phil »

when I look at the pics "rotted mortice and tennon" there is no way I'd use those parts over. it's just easier to cut new old growth parts wood when its all rotten. I'd save the epoxy, albatron etc for other repairs. if it were just a little rot near the bottom you could cut that and do a splice quite easily but once it's apart, if it's rotten like that I'd say it's good to use for it's dimensions but easier to start fresh. otherwise what are you saving? you are just toiling over saving a few rotten sticks ;-)

If you do repair it , or if you make a new one, make a point of checking the squareness by measuring corner to corner and then check the length between the two opposite corners. if it is square they are the same length. Watch that during glue ups. also make sure the pieces aren't twisted. obviously the glass can't twist so it needs to stay pretty flat. if it isn't square and flat when you do the glue ups it'll cause issues with fit.

if you try to cut new mortises and tenons you have to make sure your cuts are all square, otherwise you can end up with a twist that's hard to get rid of. this is why a good tablesaw that cuts perfectly squarely helps. you can create a condition where minor errors stack together to create a larger issue. Make sure your new wood is seasoned and not green or it will twist as it dries even if you do perfect work on the joinery. when done it is very important that everything is on a flat plane. when the window closes you want it to hit on the top and bottom at the same time. if it's glued with a rack or a twist that it's hard to fix. If there is a little wiggle in your joinery and you resort to epoxy the most important thing is that it is square and flat during glue up. you can clamp it to a piece of flat MDF or something to keep it flat.

if you are repairing what is there you might substitute some dowels for the mortise and tenon. you could just clamp the parts the way you want and drill from the outside edge through both parts and the dowels will help you keep them aligned.
Phil

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