Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Project updates and progress reports
phil
Has many leather bound books
Posts: 4616
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:11 pm
Location: Near Vancouver BC

Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by phil »

When I look at the pics "rotted mortice and tennon" there is no way I'd use those parts over. it's just easier to cut new old growth parts wood when its all rotten. I'd save the epoxy, albatron etc for other repairs. if it were just a little rot near the bottom you could cut that and do a splice quite easily but once it's apart, if it's rotten like that I'd say it's good to use for it's dimensions but easier to start fresh. otherwise what are you saving? you are just toiling over saving a few rotten sticks ;-)

If you do repair it , or if you make a new one, make a point of checking the squareness by measuring corner to corner and then check the length between the two opposite corners. if it is square they are the same length. Watch that during glue ups. also make sure the pieces aren't twisted. obviously the glass can't twist so it needs to stay pretty flat. if it isn't square and flat when you do the glue ups it'll cause issues with fit.

if you try to cut new mortises and tenons you have to make sure your cuts are all square, otherwise you can end up with a twist that's hard to get rid of. this is why a good tablesaw that cuts perfectly squarely helps. you can create a condition where minor errors stack together to create a larger issue. Make sure your new wood is seasoned and not green or it will twist as it dries even if you do perfect work on the joinery. when done it is very important that everything is on a flat plane. when the window closes you want it to hit on the top and bottom at the same time. if it's glued with a rack or a twist that it's hard to fix. If there is a little wiggle in your joinery and you resort to epoxy the most important thing is that it is square and flat during glue up. you can clamp it to a piece of flat MDF or something to keep it flat.

if you are repairing what is there you might substitute some dowels for the mortise and tenon. you could just clamp the parts the way you want and drill from the outside edge through both parts and the dowels will help you keep them aligned.

There are ways to install the dowels so that they are not visible from the outside edge but I think for a beginner it is easier to just drill from the outside edge and then you may be able to see where it is but it won't be too noticeable. you can only see the outside edge with the window open and if you paint anyway youll hide it . with this method you can clamp the parts so they are correctly aligned and the dowels will keep them that way as well as adding almost as much strength as the M+T joints had.

one other option which I dont' really like myself is the Kreg Jigs. I'll post a link to that. Quality joinery doesn't use unnecessary screws but I guess they have their place in certain circumstances such as spot repairs to broken MDF cabinets.
https://www.kregtool.com/store/c13/kreg-jigsreg/


If you do try to make new parts, try making them from junk wood first and you will likely find a few "gotchas" along the way but if you can do that then you will have a saw and skills to do the next and that will be of great benefit to you overall. Don't be scared to wreck some wood trying. once you have the process down it will be faster than you imagined. Don't be put off by a few trials that are "close but not quite" but rather, consider that part of your set up procedure.
I'd just watch a few videos on making windows on a table saw then try and report back any issues you have with the process. That's the best way to learn.

part of the process involves cutting the slots, or mortices. they need to be square and appoximately 1/3 the thickness of the wood. You can get a jig to clamp the wood in so you can run it over the saw on it's end. You can do this by following the wood along the fence with a square block but this isnt' a practice I'd recommend to a new tablesaw user. It can be done on other machienry such as a tennoner ( a machine made for cutting mortices and tennons) or a router.

here is what the tennoning jig looks like:
http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking ... oning-jigs

I bought one and used it about twice and threw it aside. The jig will work. no matter how well you dress your lumber you will find you have some minor differences in thickness. the jig clamps from one side and that means it registers to the non moveable side. the way I was shown to cut them I register to both sides of the work. there are two ways to do this.
If you only register to one side this may produce a more consistent fit but you have to keep careful track of orientation. differences in stock thickness can create a step where parts meet on the side you aren't registering to. If you register to both sides you will have less of a step as you will half the error, but you will see a difference in the looseness of the fit instead.. This might not make a lot of sense until you try and you almost have to just try it to see what I mean. one other way I have done it is to stack blades, like 2 or three sawblades. I do that if I wan the slot to fit panels. that way I cut the slot in one pass and it is always uniform. what I do is use thin washers between the stack to adjust the thickness very precisely and stack the blades. You can use a dado blade but I dont' see much advantage.

To cut the tenons, you just pass them over the blade multiple times with the blade hieght equal to a third of the thickness. then you flip the stock and do the same. notice here you are registering to both sides of the stock. you cna make them a bit tight and then sand a little to achieve the fit.

If you went into mass production to make a few windows you'd analyze and work out these minor details and you'd come up with a system that is good for you. The Tenon jig can be home made or you dont' have to use one at all. running stock through the saw on end is possible. You can use a square block as a follower to keep it square but I think it is a dangerous practice for someone who is just getting into their comfort zone. Just keep in mind what I said about the side you register to.. it'll make sense if you try but before that it might be hard to wrap your head around why it's important.

If you can do this you can also make panels, that means you can make panels for wainscot or for cabinetry or doors and mosquito screens and storm windows and many other things. the same principles apply. all of a sudden you'll realize you have the confidence to make almost anything you can imagine and that's where it really gets fun as you can visualize and then create what you wish and you only have to pay for the lumber and even that can be recycled stuff.

if you wanted to make more windows than just a few, there are many ways. as an example this is an old machine designed just to make mortises and tenons. you will also find many other newer CNC machines and things.. this is more machinery than needed for a homeowner but if you made windows for a living you probably wouldn't be doing it as I described above, you'd buy an older machine like this or a newer machine with CNC capabilities and that would increase your throughput and you'd have more consistency, closer tolerances, but this would be more of a business than you'd want in your basement. If you hired a "window guy" to make windows he might have something like this , or newer CNC machinery that would have the abilities to do this and more such as a 5 axis CNC router.

http://www.maginn.ie/image/cache/data/U ... 00x400.jpg

Phil

User avatar
O2Annie
Settling in
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:52 pm
Location: Western Wisconsin

Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by O2Annie »

I managed to get the window put back together using the bottom rail from a salvage sash we had in the attic. Not the work of a great craftsman but it looks pretty darn good and it works!

I can't say enough about how well Naval Jelly works for cleaning up the old hardware; soaked, scrubbed, soaked, scrubbed and finished with some BLO And they are stunning. Still amazed that this lovely hardware has been rushing away in the attic for the past 113 years..!

IMG_20171017_090146810.jpg
IMG_20171017_090146810.jpg (1.69 MiB) Viewed 516 times


IMG_20171125_090647451.jpg
IMG_20171125_090647451.jpg (1.62 MiB) Viewed 516 times


IMG_20171125_090713131_HDR.jpg
IMG_20171125_090713131_HDR.jpg (970.76 KiB) Viewed 516 times


IMG_20171122_060712175.jpg
IMG_20171122_060712175.jpg (1.66 MiB) Viewed 516 times

IMG_20171017_090130004_HDR.jpg
IMG_20171017_090130004_HDR.jpg (902.35 KiB) Viewed 516 times
Attachments
IMG_20171125_090609758.jpg
IMG_20171125_090609758.jpg (817.58 KiB) Viewed 516 times

User avatar
Lily left the valley
Inventor of Knob and Tube
Posts: 2170
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Gardner, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by Lily left the valley »

Your patch looks solid from what I can see. Nicely done. I'm sure when you sand and finish it to match the rest of the wood, it will hold well and a lot of folks will never know!

The hardware is really gorgeous.
--Proud member of the Industrious Cheapskate Club
--Currently pondering ways to encourage thoughtful restovation and discourage mindless renovation.

phil
Has many leather bound books
Posts: 4616
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:11 pm
Location: Near Vancouver BC

Re: Window beyond repair - volunteers?

Post by phil »

good for another hundred years ;-)

Post Reply