Tall picket fence questions

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Willa
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Tall picket fence questions

Post by Willa »

I have decided that I would like to build a tall picket fence to separate my driveway from the backyard. Most of the neighbours have a solid 6 foot tall privacy fence, built from pressure treated lumber.

I saw a photo of what appears to be a 6 foot tall picket fence. This seems like a good solution. I like the small town look of a picket fence, but I would like some privacy. I am adjacent to a busy street with a troublesome bar a couple of blocks away. I don't want to deal with unknown drunk people in my back yard for any reason. I also figured that if the fence was not entirely opaque that it might make my back safer from break-ins - as there would be less privacy than a solid fence.

I know that I cannot buy 6' tall pickets, so I figured that I would need to cut my own. A long time ago some neighbours had a fence built by some incompetent dudes, who did not use long enough posts ( ie 8 foot posts for a 6 foot fence) so the fence was always wobbly. I plan to get the posts professionally installed. A friend said he could help with the building part. Here are my questions for people who have built a fence or had one built:

- the posts need to be pressure treated, yes ? Since the width of pickets I want will be narrower, I probably can't buy regular PT fence boards. Do the pickets need to be pressure wood treated if they are to be painted ? I know there is fancier wood like cedar which gets pricey. Again - I want a painted fence - no bare wood.

- if the pickets are not treated wood, then they should be placed above ground level a little ?

- friend claims nails are better than screws to assemble the fence. My (online) research says screws are better. Friend claims it will take too long to assemble this fence with screws. Also that a screw gun is better for this purpose than a drill. I am unclear of he means screw gun (like is used for drywall, or is a self loading one) or he means hammer drill.

- since the fence is taller than a typical 3 1/2 foot picket fence, does this mean that it should have another horizontal cross piece (terminology ?) for greater stability ?

Fence advice and opinions, please ?

This is a pic of the fence that got me thinking, though I would space the pickets a little more closely, and don't want fancy post caps. The spacing in the white picket fence is what I am thinking.

15ed8953b605c18dbafd6dca3ac04019.jpg
15ed8953b605c18dbafd6dca3ac04019.jpg (46.89 KiB) Viewed 1329 times


lg_Reverse_Runner_wooden_picket_gate_18.jpg
lg_Reverse_Runner_wooden_picket_gate_18.jpg (268.06 KiB) Viewed 1329 times

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Nicholas
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Re: Tall picket fence questions

Post by Nicholas »

I think the 8 foot posts for a 6 foot fence are ok, the posts by the incompetents may not have been set with post cement.

Pressure treated can be stained. They can be prepped and painted as long as they are dried out from the treatment.

A screw gun is any portable or otherwise drill, variable control, with the phillips head attachments, (instead of drill bits) I have an assortment pack bought at Lowes Depot. Whether nailing or screwing it is good to have a pilot hole to prevent splitting. I notice that the ready made sections use staples.

What you have to watch for is that sometimes pressure treated will warp, shrink and bend, I am having that problem with my homemade shutters.

I have been considering the lower or 4 foot gothic style picket fence, more for cosmetic charm, but I am going to get the ready made sections at Lowes Depot, do my own post digging.
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Re: Tall picket fence questions

Post by SkipW »

My rule of thumb for fences is to have 1/2 of the height below ground (i.e.: a 6' fence has 3' underground) A lot depends on what type of soil you are putting the posts in as well. If you have loose light soil, you may need a tight-packing stone chip to set the posts. If you have dense packed sandy soil, you may need nothing else. I do not use concrete to set posts because it encapsulates the post and traps moisture, potentially causing premature rot. If packed in stone or stone chips, you get drainage. Having enough post underground keeps the fence stable.

Yes, use PT posts and make sure the ones you get are rated for ground contact, not above ground use.

Yes, I would add a third rail for stability. It will hold the pickets straight and prevent some warping, as well as helping to keep the fence from racking.

Depending on the width of the pickets you desire, I would get boards approximately twice the width and rip in half. Unless you want 3 1/2" pickets, then you can buy 1x4's. As for length, make a jig to cut the tops and do those first, then cut all to length...it is much easier to get them all the same length that way than trying to cut the points at a certain length ;-)

Yes, leave the pickets 2-3" above grade if you can and make sure you prime and paint the bottoms well. This will save the pickets from absorbing water and rotting in the future. Pre-paint all pickets and rails, don't assemble and then paint. If you do, you leave an unprotected area on the picket and the rail where they join and this mating part will hold water and rot. If you buy PT, rule of thumb is no paint for one year to allow the moisture to leave or you will have paint issues.

Screwing is always better to mate two wood pieces outdoors as it holds tighter and won't pull out with weather changes, but that is a LOT of screws. Nailing can be done with a power nailer, but would be best if you used ring shank nails to avoid separation. IF you screw, you can get an 18v impact gun (screw gun) at a bog box store for not much money. Get two batteries and you will always have one on the charger ready to go when the one in the gun is depleted. Go for lithium, not Ni-cad. Much better power and constant until out, holds charge better, no 'charger memory'. You will use an impact gun for all of your projects and it will pay for itself in use on the fence alone.
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Re: Tall picket fence questions

Post by phil »

if you build a gate, the bracing on the gate should be like the white photo, from the lower end of the hinge side upwards, not from the hinge side downwards. the idea is the wood wont' compress but fasteners can pull out and many are built backwards.

it might be a good excuse to buy a screw gun similar to this one. this is a senco but you can get cheaper brands. the screws come in a strip and it is much faster , but you can get by with galvanized nails or cope with loading each screw and use what you have.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/like/131953866228?chn=ps

the planks that run parallel to the ground so you want it proportional or it will sag between posts. you'll need heavier rails if you have heavier pickets. put the narrow edge toward the sky, not the wider part or you'll have more sag.

if you set the posts in concrete, you dont' need to go crazy. bury the bottom in sand or gravel to let the water away from the bottom of the post or it will sit in a concrete dish of water and rot way more quickly. throw some stones near the bottom if you have them , put your concrete near the top of the hole not the bottom. I'd just get redimix but you can mix your own if you like. you could probably stack the boards and clamp half a dozen or so together then cut the ends in groups so it is less cutting. If you can access a bandsaw that's easiest but you could get by with a jigsaw, itll just take longer. a sawzall might make a mess but maybe with fine narrow blades, you could try. if you want htem straight not curved use a circular saw or tablesaw. You might make a template to follow first and clamp that to each group. make the cut then sand them with coarse paper to hide the saw marks.

you can find tables showing different species and duration outdoors. You might google that and compare what's available for a good price.

stain won't peel but paint will so you could think about different colors of stain or if you want white paint just make sure the wood is dry when you paint. often the wood will have a smooth finish from the planer called mill glaze. you can pressure wash, or leave it outside for a few rains and let it roughen up so the paint has somethign to grab onto. you can use blopentine or there are paint on products to apply to any cuts you make on PT lumber. you dont' want the paint to fall off because the wood is not dry, or too smooth. Fir or cedar will last longer than spruce pine or maple.

I have a manual post hole auger, you just turn it and it drills downward and you use the scoop end to take out the soil. You could hire guys to come with a powered one but if it isnt' too rocky the old manual ones work pretty well.

if you hire guys to set the posts I would make the panels first and have them attach the panels as they go. otherwise you will be trying to fit your fence into existing spacing and if they hit a rock it might be easier to shorten one and continue in order to move the hole over than to end up fiddling with the length of your pre made panels on both sides of the post. or let them put the posts and then you have to fit them as you build.

I'd use a water level to make benchmarks and string a line or use a laser to keep it straight and level. if you have any slope you have to figure out if you will slant the fence or if you want the pickets all plumb. it depends on the grade I guess. crooked fences never look nice.

the P/T garden ties are pretty cheap here anyway. they come in a few diameters all round but with two flat sides. I sometimes use those for rails. I have a fence near me where someone stacked them right up to make a pretty nice log cabin sort of fence. Ive seen other creative designs. if you can only get short pre-cut ones you could put a row of those and the pickets on top, if you like that look. they can also function as a retaining wall if you need one. If I rebuild fences sometimes I stack a few between the existing posts and then I can re-cut the pickets shorter and use them again. that solidifies the fence a lot and it's cheap. rats and mice need to go around or climb over. it might be a material to consider. it makes weed trimming easier as you then aren't dealing with the grass in between pickets and thrashing the paint with the weed eater. you might like the open bottom look better. Id' start with pricing materials locally, maybe consider how long you want it to last and weigh that against cost of materials. if you buy lumber that is green or knotty or cheap pine then expect more warpage as the boards normalize. you could look into decking products.

the white fence looks nice !

Phil

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Willa
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Re: Tall picket fence questions

Post by Willa »

Nicholas wrote:I think the 8 foot posts for a 6 foot fence are ok, the posts by the incompetents may not have been set with post cement.


The incompetents were observed to set the posts with some sort of quick dry cement, then not let the posts sit for a few days. They set them, then immediately started building the fence, using an old fashioned hammer and nails. There were some crazy things with the fence, including a lack of competent measurements so no panel matched the other. It was a sorry fence.

I will definitely get pros to set the posts. No auger wrassling for me.

Thanks everyone for the pointers and input. I am hoping to take the path of least resistance - ie using standard widths of board for the pickets v.s. ripping them to size. What are the standard board widths/lengths I could expect to find at a basic lumberyard that would be appropriate ?

I thought the pickets could be cut using the type of chop saw (terminology ? middle aged gal here...)where you can adjust the angle, like if you were cutting a mitre on a flat piece of wood. I want the pickets to be longer and pointier v.s. a 45 degree cut. No fancy picket shapes using a scroll saw, etc.

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Willa
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Re: Tall picket fence questions

Post by Willa »

phil wrote:if you build a gate, the bracing on the gate should be like the white photo, from the lower end of the hinge side upwards, not from the hinge side downwards. the idea is the wood wont' compress but fasteners can pull out and many are built backwards.

the planks that run parallel to the ground so you want it proportional or it will sag between posts. you'll need heavier rails if you have heavier pickets. put the narrow edge toward the sky, not the wider part or you'll have more sag.


Thanks for the point about the bracing on the gate as I assumed that the bracing would work either direction, but that is why I am asking questions here.

Not sure what you mean by "put the narrow edge toward the sky" though ?

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Re: Tall picket fence questions

Post by Lily left the valley »

Willa, I think he means if you were using, say, a 1 x 4 as your rail, the 1" would face the sky. Some folks like the idea of the ledge behind, and will have the 4" to the sky, but with less surface attached to the pickets comes the inevitable less support too. That ledge also winds up as a rain catcher, so more wear and bowing/warping (the latter also due to less surface against the pickets.)
Image
In this diagram I found, I'd guess it's 1 x 4 as the lower rail, and 1 x 1 for the upper rail since the scale appears a half height fence and they have a top rail as well which gives additional support, and lessens the need for another 1 x 4 being used for the upper rail.
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Re: Tall picket fence questions

Post by phil »

yes exactly what I meant, maybe my "towards the sky" explanation wasn;t good.

if you take a 1x4 or a 2x4 it bends easy one way but it is very hard to bend the other way. You often see fences where they put it so the wider dimension is towards the sky. Then the fence droops under it's own weight between each post.

one thing you could think about is doing a gradual sweep where the length of the pickets or even the posts toward the outside of the lot are longer, maybe going shorter either in the middle of the lot or between posts. I dont' know if you like the look. I'd search google images of "traditional fences" "craftsman style fences" "old picket fences" there are thousands of ideas you can get ideas from.

you can look at the nominal sizes of lumber. Yes you can cut your pointy ends on a chop saw if you dont' want the curvature. If you want a bandsaw you could shop Craigslist and there are deals and I think Willa might be more comfortable using one. they are good for ripping lumber or resawing if you get a larger one. resawing is when you take larger lumber like making a 4x4 into a bunch of 1x4.

if you have room, there are some really great deals on radial arm saws. chop saws are more portable but a radial arm saw will actually do more , it just isn't' as portable. they are great for cutting to length. less great for ripping but you can rip with them. I think you can find one of those for between free and 50 bucks if you look because they have sort of fallen out of fashion in many respects. I have a RAS and the only tome I wish I had a chop saw is when I make a lot of dust and wish I could take it outside. for contractors the chop saws are great as they are so portable. If you look at chop saws there are either ones that just chop or ones that slide and chop. the sliders are more useful as they will cut wider boards but the chop saws are cheaper and either would do the trick. you could do all of this on a tablesaw and really that is the most useful saw, and the most common. Ive seen many nice radial arm saws for free and they are often overlooked as useful machines.

You can hurt yourself on any saw. bandsaws are not so intimidating as they dont' kick back but you can make featherboards and use kickback pawls and things to make it safer on a tablesaw or radial arm saw. you can get little bandsaws and they are quiet and some people who can't have a tablesaw might get by with a bandsaw, such as someone in a condo where the noise of a tablesaw would get you shut down but the whirring of a small bandsaw isn't very loud. the advantage of a bandsaw is being able to cut curves more easily.

I'd suggest visiting a lumberyard or two, not home depot, see if they have fir or cedar and if it's too much then consider P/T or there are even some man made materials now that really last well. you can find p/t decking that is like 1x4 or 1x6 but where the two shorter edges are rounded off. sometimes you can save a little money by ripping, like if you want 3/4 x 3/4 strips for example.
Its best if you can see the wood so you can see how many knots are in it etc. big knots might mean some warping but perfect lumber costs more. If you only want a 10 year fence then painted pine might be ok. if you want it to last 20 or 30 years I'd use better quality wood. If it's full of knots buy extra so you can throw some aside. if it's clear lumber then you won't have so much waste. If you have any little mills they might be able to cut custom sizes and that can differentiate your fence from the rest. but they might not dry it so you have to, or their lumber may be not graded so you may get some crap and some beautiful boards. sometimes I do that and then high grade the nicer ones for interior trim and such.

older lumber was closer to dimension so in your house you may see that the lumber is oversized when compared to new lumber. one thing that can add a really nice touch is to go towards the older dimensions, it is also thicker so lasts longer. If you went to a small mill they might be only happy to cut some that is to the older dimensions.
a real 2 x 2 that is actually two inches wide will be about twice as strong as a 2x2 from home depot that measures a lot smaller. I think this is very subtle to those who dont' know lumber and those who do would see the robustness of the larger dimension and it displays quality and in my opinion that fits well with the craftsman look of simple, robust and built to last.

If you dont' mind the look of rough lumber you can look at buying it as "rough sawn" . when I built my stairs I ordered rough sawn fir in order to get into these larger dimensions. I planed it myself and ended up at very close to 2" finished. I dont' take off more than I need.
the thicker dimension looks nicer but it was a lot of work to dry and plane it all to size and then round the corners etc. If you liked rough lumber you could use it rough and put a heavy coat of paint or stain on it and it would have some grab and have a different look. usually pickets are smooth and that's probably what you are after. you can get rough sawn lumber in more different species from places that sell to cabinet shops or perhaps real lumberyards can bring it in. Here we have some mills that only do cedar.

If it's kiln dried you might use it straight away. if it's green you might have to sticker and stack it for a few months and you can speed drying by putting a fan on it for a month or so in dry weather. as it dries you'll get some checking on the ends and you can paint the ends to help it not do that as much.

it's always a trade off but a good decision on lumber will change the cost and the decision could easily double or half the cost compared to pre-made pickets. it's not just a matter of finding the best you can.

If you really want to save you can look for fences that people are taking down on Craigslist. If you are ambitious you might find you can take someones fence apart for the free wood. sometimes they just want to move them because they change their plans. you could scan through the free section and look for keywords like fir or cedar and see what you find. I love re-using stuff as it saves a lot. you could use old fir t and G flooring and cut the edges off for example. If it's free then it could be worth the time depending what your time is worth.

I need pickets around my porch. about 100 of them. when I built my stairs I wanted full dimension 2x6 and so what I did was bought 2x10 and the piece I didnt' use will go towards my pickets. that gave me the full dimension of 6" not 5 1/2
I also ordered ten footers and only needed 7 that gave me a pile of 3 footers. Ill use that lumber to make full dimension 2x2. when i rip the 2x2 I will use a tablesaw jig to cut them slightly tapered so each will be about 1 3/4" at the top and full 2" at the bottom in both dimensions. it will add a touch of style that it wouldn't' have with store bought 2x2. Ill have to run a router over each corner to do a 1/4" roundover. that's really easy to do.

you could do something like that with the posts, buy big ones and taper them for a little extra style. I have a house near me where they used large fir posts and tapered them and cut sort f a rounded knotch into each side about 6" from the top. the custom posts really do a lot visually and separate his historic fence from the rest.

buying larger than needed enabled me to high grade the lumber for my stairs. since I had lots of trim on each board I could cut out some knots. when i cut my 3" pieces down I might have some waste but again I will use what I can from it. maybe 1/3 of them will have a big knot and be unusable. If I wanted clear lumber it would be really pricey so working around the flaws is important. you can fill smaller knots like 1" and under with bondo since you are painting but if the knot is half the width of the board it might be a throw away.

If you want 6 foot pickets you need 12 foot boards right ? but when you get there you might find the 20 footers have less knots or something but also that gives you 2 feet that you don't use and you might be able to space your cuts to remove some of the knots. you might also find that the ends of your 12 footers ave some checking or cracks near the ends, this 2 feet might help remove them rather than discarding half the 12 foot board due to a crack.

if the material is easy to get , like a pile in the lumberyard you might buy most of what you need and then in the end go back and top up to avoid over buying. If they bring in a custom size then you'll have to figure out what percentage of waste you need and you won't necessarily even see it until you get your order. they might throw terms at you like "some small knots"

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Willa
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Re: Tall picket fence questions

Post by Willa »

YouTube video of attaching pickets. Try to overlook the tinkly opening music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbBy-Z-6suY

He appears to be attaching the pickets with a regular drill, and not pre-drilling pilot holes. His method of using a string for a consistent height is wise, as is pre-painting everything before assembly. Does anyone see faults with how he is doing this ? How would this be improved using a screwgun or hammer drill ?

(I know it is unwise to paint fresh PT lumber as it is just too wet for paint to properly adhere. He mentions it is treated but what that means in the UK may not be the same as here ?)

Unless I chance upon a major load of pre-used fence boards in excellent condition, the right width and nearby I won't be chasing those. I prefer to re-use but sometimes the effort needed is more trouble than it is worth. I am not concerned about using clear perfect boards - they need to be a consistent width but I won't drive myself nuts over a few knots. The boards in the fence that is here are in pretty sorry shape, and too short. They may get re-used for a temporary walkway in the back though ?

Thanks for the clarification about "the narrow edge" as that was conceptually confounding me.

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Re: Tall picket fence questions

Post by Mick_VT »

If you use deck screws into fresh pressure treated lumber you do not need to drill pilot holes. A screw gun makes the job go much faster than a regular drill with a driver bit
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