Roofing project...

[EngineerNextDoor (WavyGlass)]

I too am an old timer from other sites. I have finished and moved on from my old house as of last fall. Aside from a very random post, I probably have been on it 7 years. Some may remember me as mhodge44.

Anyway, I have had an interesting job for the last 7 years now as a structural forensic engineer. I have completed numerous structural and roof inspections and learned a lot over the years. Had I logged on just a week or two earlier I would have tried to talk you out of through-fastened metal. I know that a lot of people may disagree with me, but believe me that my experience includes 100s of metal roofs, not just a one here and there. Stuff is terrible as far as I am concerned. These things are made to leak. Fastener location and installation is of key importance. Sure the metal may last 60 years, but the fasteners certainly will not. Regardless of what the roof salesman pitched, these things have a 10-15 years lifespan before significant maintenance is required. The too often perform much more poorly than the general belief that the public seems to hold with these things. As far as I am concerned, they do not belong on anything but agricultural building.

Whenever cost is an issue, you cannot go wrong with shingles. Material -wise, it is often less than a 10% mark up to get dimensional over three-tabs. You may expect an average of a 20-year lifespan, give or take 10 years, depending on the quality of the two most important factors, installation and ventilation.

Around my area, I can buy dimensionals at a retail price of ~$80 to $85/square. I may expect to pay somewhere between $75 to 100 a square for removal and installing new shingles, though I know you can get companies as low as $50 to $55 a square. As long as you stick under $200/square for removing existing and replacing with dimensionals then that's pretty good. $300/square is thereabouts the top companies in my areas. Even at $300/square, your $30 square shingle roof should cost around $9k. I expect to pay around $5500 to $6000 this spring for my new ~34 square dimensional shingle roof. I would argue that higher labor costs per square does not mean that company is better than the cheaper cost/square.

[Jeepnstein]

Mhodge44? Nice to hear from you after all this time.

Your post got me thinking, which is a bad thing for me. That, and a delay because my roofer is having L1,L2,L3, and L4 fused tomorrow has me left with time on my hands. He was going to push through and do it before he went to the hospital but my wife convinced him to do a couple of shingle roofs and get us when he's back on his feet, so to speak, in a couple of weeks.

So I started talking to people I knew who had the exposed fastener roofs. You're right, they're prone to leakage and fastener failure. Almost everyone I have spoken to locally who used the exposed fasteners have had leaks. The exception is people using my contractor, who is also more expensive. You can see the difference in how the valleys, ridge caps, and flashings are done. I can spot his work a mile away now. I also noticed that one particular group of contractors tended to overdrive their fasteners and sure enough every one of those roofs is going to need to have them replaced within ten years. I've seen roofs with obvious seams between panels, valleys that couldn't help but leak, ridge caps that are unfinished at best, no drip edges, no snow guards, and my favorite is the roofers who must buy his fasteners by the ton. The metal is just stitched all over with fasteners. I saw one where the panels were obviously pre-cut to a standard length and had to be overlapped but they got the seams backwards so it catches the water. And who thinks for one second that flashing on a brick house should just be glued in place with caulk?

There are several Amish companies that are doing metal roofing locally and their work speaks for itself. After a couple of years the metal is faded. The paint is usually failing where they made cuts with a circular saw. The ridges and valleys just look unfinished. And they apparently have some moral objection to using a proper drip edge. I'd have them work on my barn, but I'm not so sold on them for my house. They're fast and cheap.

My best bet at this point is that it seems that the workmanship determines whether you're going to get leaks or not. Shingles have a notoriously short life span locally. After ten years you're on borrowed time. Our current roof lasted less than fifteen years. The workmanship was OK but the south west side of the roof that gets the wind and rain coming up the river valley is just worn to the point of failure. The parts of our roof that were standing seam lasted more than 100. The majority of the flatter pitched roofs I've seen were the most likely to leak. I'm figuring on at least some fastener replacement within ten years.

Much of the cost of this project is in removing the Yankee gutters and switching to continuous guttering. I've seen two houses that my guy has done this way and they both look good. The roof line is straight and clean as opposed to that tell-tale arch that lots of roofers put in the roof when they do it. We're also having two chimney caps made and some minor repairs to the dormers.

My preference would have been standing seam but it was significantly higher. What we did discuss at length was a steel shingle that aped the look of slate. It was gorgeous and while it was a budget buster it was not as bad as standing seam.

After this is done I'm going to get out my concrete mixer and start building our new outdoor kitchen. That'll be a fun job.

[Jeepnstein]

It started today. The workers started showing up around 7:30 and the contractor was there before 8:00. Their work day starts at 8:00 and they didn't waste any time getting moving. Lots of hustle, good communication, and they seem to all like working together. That's a very good sign. Today we're going to see the Yankee gutters removed and the old metal roofing removed. Tomorrow they'll be about finished and won't spend a full day working on Friday.

The contractor is having to use his wheelchair today, which he hates. They fused L1,2,3,4, and 5 last Thursday and he says his pain levels have dropped dramatically. His crew all laugh about it and say it really makes it tough for them to call in sick.

I'm anxious to see how they handle the chimney caps and flashings. But since I have to pull about a mile of wire at work today and meet with a vendor about a project that is stalling out I have to be at work. My wife is at home watching the circus.

[Jeepnstein]

The felt is mostly down and tearoff is almost done. Debris was hauled off at the end of the day.



The gutters are getting ripped out and new fascias put in place. This will keep the deep eaves. Lots of rot from the poorly done aluminum fascia. This is what you get with a scrappy metal job.





We had the fascia removed but have to opt for leaving the soffit as-is. That was an extra $4,000 and will have to wait. At least it will remain clean and dry which is more than I can say for how it was with the Yankee gutters. Just having all that ill-advised metal off of there is a breath of fresh air. It had been installed in such a way as to absolutely guarantee it would trap water against the house.



The shingles on the main roof are coming off today and sheeting is being put down to smooth the transition across the Yankee gutters.

All the windows will have to be repainted after this is done. So every wooden storm will get pulled and some PM done on them. They are holding up beautifully. Easily the best time and money I ever spent on the house.

The chimney had to come down a bit because of failing mortar. We're going to have a metal cap made to make up for the loss in height. It doesn't look terrible right now but it doesn't look right either. What I'd give for some free time and a sheet metal brake right now. I know what I want but will probably have to have an expedient cap put on until the proper one is finished.

I'll be picking up my cement mixer this weekend so I can start replacing the sidewalks that were undermined from years of leaky gutters. I love messing with concrete. It's right up there with doing plumbing and electrical work. And I'm not being facetious. Of course my true love is framing roofs from scratch.

[Jeepnstein]

Has this project ever been slow. There is tons of work going on but nothing to show for it. Good prep work will make for a good job. They're spending time getting everything lining up nicely so it will be a clean install. Met with the gutter installer and have that plan going forward. We're putting up six inch gutters, so I'm thinking it'll take a lot of water to fill them. The down side is I get to dig a couple of new drain lines after they decide exactly where the new down spouts will be. Hurry up and wait.

We had a strong forecast of storms today so they did not work. And it didn't rain until 5:30. That's got to be killing his crew. They want this one done.

And speaking of hurrying up and waiting. The contractor called Friday afternoon as I was wrapping up some stuff at the office to "suggest" that I go ahead and change the trim color on the windows on the front of the house, the bump out in the kitchen, and dormers so I don't have to walk on the new roof and get it all scratched and dirty. So a quick trip to Sherman Williams on my way home was in order.

The storms are holding up nicely. I took the time to redo some of the sashes in place. Easy work on a beautiful day. The new color is a brighter shade of red. It really stands out nicely against the brick.



The ones in the front dormer were totally shot and I had to pull them and do a complete restoration.



The weather should cooperate tomorrow and they should have the tear off and sheeting done.

[Jeepnstein]

We're stalled. I'm still doing windows as quickly as I can but the roofing has stopped. It would seem the manufacturer sent us the wrong roof. The ensuing bout of shouting was something to behold. My contractor is upset because he's not able to finish the job and get paid. I'm just wanting them to finish. And the supplier is trying to figure out what it will do to make it up to us. We had some fairly heavy rains this weekend but no damage other than some water in the basement since I have no gutters at all on the house.

The lesson from this? Expect delays. Communicate daily with your contractor. And remember that in the end it will probably be worth it.

[mattswabb]

Love those windows.

[Jeepnstein]

Love those windows.

Thanks. We have them in several locations around the house. The one in this picture was falling apart when we bought the house. One of neighbors down the street was a retired glazier. His hobby in retirement? Making stained glass windows. He taught me quite a bit about how to stabilize and preserve my windows. He considered that very different from making one from scratch. That particular window was so bad he had to completely rebuild it. We were putting it back in the day we moved in. He said it was a "housewarming gift from him".

[phil]

so it looks like you have glass storm windows on the outside of the double hung windows. I guess you can slide open the double hung windows and then hinge open the storms? is there a way to hold the storms open so the wind doesn't catch them?

I have some windows that hinge open, is there a way to make storms go over those and still open them without taking the storms down? the ones that hinge open have a metal rod thing with a clamp screw so I can open them and lock them in any position. I can't figure out how I can put screens on the inside without the lock knob rod thing interfering, it kind of pokes in toward the room as the window opens so the screen would need to clear that.

Can a hinged storm work over top of another hinged window? is the only option an interior storm?
Phil

[Mick_VT]

Phil,
take a look at the hardware on this page http://www.cherrycreekwindows.com/produ ... rm-windows might be what you need