Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
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Lower Brambly
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
HeatingHelp.com might be helpful in answering your questions about the radiators and baseboards. The Wall is their messsage board.
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phil
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
- get buy in from your significant other if you have one. If you don't have that you are ruined from the get go.
don't overlook stuff like the sewer( has it ever been replaced?) the wiring(has it been re-done, or are you in for a full wiring job). ( insurance)
You mentioned the ceiling being dropped, develop an action plan to make the kitchen liveable or you'll be doing that while trying to use it. Consider calling in some contractors for estimates , even of work you intend to do yourself, and don't assume you can do it a lot cheaper.
consider having some of it done for you, enough that it is liveable. I assumed it would all take less time and although I had the best of intentions, I found I had a pretty unhappy spouse when I was building kitchen cabinets, and fixing that dropped ceiling, Sanding the ceiling and still wanting to eat, live and wash dishes.
Living in a house and doing a compete re-wire is quite an undertaking. again consider the time and see yourself trying to live with extension cords and half the house wired, stuff like that wears on relationships. I have seen other homes where they were for sale, marriage breakup, kitchen renos half done, not fun You want to make sure you don't end up there.
Estimate the amount of time you'll have and how much of that you wont spend with friends and family and such. You need to plan for some Me time in all of this or you'll go nuts. The time you spend renovating will be taken away from other fun stuff in life, that's just the way it is.
Try to not see what it could be and look at what it is, then try to get to a reasonable educated conclusion about just how much time and money that will take to make it what you dream of being. Get others to look at that, get a reality check. Are your expectations in line with what you can actually accomplish? how much will it really cost?
Look at others of a little higher price to see if doing these renos makes good financial sense. Those TV shows that depict couples doing renos and finishing them up in like 6 months, that's fantasy TV. Make sure your timelines are reasonable.
Old houses are a LOT of work to restore and a lot of the time if you compare to something that is a bit of a stretch financially, That one is also a cheaper deal when you figure in all of the stuff you thought you'd do.
It is easy to say you'll do this and build that and rebuild , and the list.. does the list match your timeline for the amount of free time you are willing to invest? I find I can usually give myself an estimate of how long a job should take then about triple it to account for stuff I haven't ven thought of doing but simply couldnt bear to "let go"
try to establish a reasonable quality level for your workmanship. I have a hard time with this one. I want to make everything perfect, then forget the time spent, and get caught in the details. i have fun doing it but I also have learned that time with friends and family are more important than just renos.
Take time to celebrate accomplishments, finish a room, clean up, have friends over , take some time out for you. a lot of us get burned out from the project so I guess what I am saying is try to take all this into account and work out reasonable goals for yourself. Is THAT house worth 10 years of your free time? You have to enjoy doing it, otherwise just don't go there.
don't overlook stuff like the sewer( has it ever been replaced?) the wiring(has it been re-done, or are you in for a full wiring job). ( insurance)
You mentioned the ceiling being dropped, develop an action plan to make the kitchen liveable or you'll be doing that while trying to use it. Consider calling in some contractors for estimates , even of work you intend to do yourself, and don't assume you can do it a lot cheaper.
consider having some of it done for you, enough that it is liveable. I assumed it would all take less time and although I had the best of intentions, I found I had a pretty unhappy spouse when I was building kitchen cabinets, and fixing that dropped ceiling, Sanding the ceiling and still wanting to eat, live and wash dishes.
Living in a house and doing a compete re-wire is quite an undertaking. again consider the time and see yourself trying to live with extension cords and half the house wired, stuff like that wears on relationships. I have seen other homes where they were for sale, marriage breakup, kitchen renos half done, not fun You want to make sure you don't end up there.
Estimate the amount of time you'll have and how much of that you wont spend with friends and family and such. You need to plan for some Me time in all of this or you'll go nuts. The time you spend renovating will be taken away from other fun stuff in life, that's just the way it is.
Try to not see what it could be and look at what it is, then try to get to a reasonable educated conclusion about just how much time and money that will take to make it what you dream of being. Get others to look at that, get a reality check. Are your expectations in line with what you can actually accomplish? how much will it really cost?
Look at others of a little higher price to see if doing these renos makes good financial sense. Those TV shows that depict couples doing renos and finishing them up in like 6 months, that's fantasy TV. Make sure your timelines are reasonable.
Old houses are a LOT of work to restore and a lot of the time if you compare to something that is a bit of a stretch financially, That one is also a cheaper deal when you figure in all of the stuff you thought you'd do.
It is easy to say you'll do this and build that and rebuild , and the list.. does the list match your timeline for the amount of free time you are willing to invest? I find I can usually give myself an estimate of how long a job should take then about triple it to account for stuff I haven't ven thought of doing but simply couldnt bear to "let go"
try to establish a reasonable quality level for your workmanship. I have a hard time with this one. I want to make everything perfect, then forget the time spent, and get caught in the details. i have fun doing it but I also have learned that time with friends and family are more important than just renos.
Take time to celebrate accomplishments, finish a room, clean up, have friends over , take some time out for you. a lot of us get burned out from the project so I guess what I am saying is try to take all this into account and work out reasonable goals for yourself. Is THAT house worth 10 years of your free time? You have to enjoy doing it, otherwise just don't go there.
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joeny1980 (WavyGlass)
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
$64k for a 4BR with almost 2500sqft sitting on an acre! Good lordy. I dont know Michigan, but how is that price for the area? To me its an almost hard-to-believe price.
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phil
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
joeny1980 wrote:$64k for a 4BR with almost 2500sqft sitting on an acre! Good lordy. I dont know Michigan, but how is that price for the area? To me its an almost hard-to-believe price.
It would be well over a million here,,
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csnyder (WavyGlass)
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
Hello to a fellow Michigander!
From the limited pictures, the house looks very nice - many of the original features appear to be intact.
AFAIK, mixing baseboard and cast iron radiators on the same zone (if that's the configuration in that house), while not optimal, won't hurt anything. The issue is that baseboard provides less radiation than the cast iron, so it usually has to run at higher temperatures. Therefore, you either have to run the zone hot (causing rooms with cast iron to be too warm), cold (rooms with baseboard chilly), or compromise in between (both problems, to a lesser extent). There are ways to mitigate this - partially closing the valves to the cast iron rads to restrict flow, for instance - but it won't be able to provide the same efficiency and comfort as a properly zoned system. You won't be damaging anything, though, and it's always possible to add zoning later (you'd probably need to cut into some walls to run piping, but running PEX is much less intrusive than other piping methods).
Radiant heat, properly configured, is the best heating system out there - very quiet, comfortable, flexible, and efficient - especially with a modulating-condensing boiler with outdoor-reset controls. Capacity permitting, the system can be extended to do in-floor heating, snow-melt, pool heating, (probably never the last two at our house:)), etc. Equipment tends to be more expensive, but it lasts much longer - when we were looking at houses, we saw two houses with the original 1920's boilers, converted from coal to natural gas, that worked well (though probably only 40-50% efficient). The big drawback is that you need to install a forced air system for things like A/C, humidification, etc.
We love our radiant system (all cast iron rads, new Viessmann mod-con boiler), and our most recent gas bill - which included the recent bitter cold snap - was only $210; not bad for a 97-year-old house with 58 windows (we have also insulated the heck out of it, and almost all of the windows have storms).
As far as inspecting the system goes: IMHO, the biggest problem would be leaks in the radiators or piping. A leaking radiator is usually not repairable, while repairing leaking pipes that are concealed in walls/ceilings is a pain. In a hydronic (rather than steam) system, these problems are usually caused by the pipes getting frozen. Corrosion should be minimal, as it's a closed system: once it's is filled with water and purged of air, very little oxygen is available to cause rust.
During inspection, if any radiators are failing to provide adequate heat, it's likely that they have some air inside of them. A tell-tale sign of this is that the radiator won't be warm all the way to the top. Each radiator has a bleeder valve on one side, near the top. To bleed a radiator, hold a container beneath the valve to catch any water, open the valve with a radiator key, wait for the hiss of air to turn into a trickle of water, then shut the valve (check for drips - those old valves sometimes need to be forced very tight). If the previous owners of the house were considerate, there might be a radiator key in the house somewhere (look near the boiler); otherwise, you can perhaps find one at a local hardware store (look for an older store with knowledgeable old-timers, and/or a store with a good plumbing department; avoid big-box stores), from a heating contractor, or online.
If the piping is mostly original, there's a good chance that the pipes are insulated with asbestos; this isn't hazardous, as long as the insulation is in good shape and not disturbed. It becomes an issue if you want to make changes, such as replacing the boiler. Our heating contractor required that we remove the asbestos from the pipes near the boiler. It is possible to do DIY asbestos removal (make sure to research the appropriate methods first - it's easy to create a huge mess if you don't do it right), but we decided to hire a company to remove it from all of the accessible piping.
There's likely to be an expansion tank in the attic. Ours is a big wood box (I'm assuming there's a metal tank inside - I haven't looked at it too closely). These tanks allowed the water level to rise and fall as its temperature changed. New systems have a small compression tank near the boiler to accomplish the same thing. Our contractor capped off the lines to the tank when our system was upgraded, but left the tank in place (it would need to be dismantled to be removed). Initially, they missed one of the lines, leading to water leaking out of the tank into the attic and all the way down to the first floor; thankfully our painter was working in the next room, and heard the dripping before it got too bad; the heating contractor paid to fix the (minimal) damage.
I'm happy to try to answer any additional heating questions you have about these systems; I've learned a lot over the past year about these systems, though I'm by no means an expert. I second the recommendation to check out the heatinghelp.com forums - the people there really know their stuff (most of the regulars are professional contractors).
Regarding the old windows: Don't rush to replace them! While some windows may be damaged beyond repair (if they're really bad - even sections of wood can be replaced), most can be refurbished at a much lower cost than replacement. The original windows were designed to be repaired as needed, and can last as long as the house with appropriate maintenance; replacement windows, however, usually can't be repaired - they must be replaced when they fail in 20 years (I recently saw a replacement window company promising decades - decades! - of service; my windows are almost a century old, and will easily last another century!). With good ropes and a proper paint job (some parts of a window sash and frame should be left bare), they operate very smoothly. Weatherstripping can be added to reduce air infiltration. Storm windows are perhaps the wisest investment: they provide very good insulation performance and protect the primary sashes from the elements. You can buy wooden storm windows that have interchangeable glass/screen panels that can be swapped from the inside, avoiding the need to get on the ladder each spring and fall.
Refurbishing old windows is a good DIY project (it is quite time-consuming), and you'll find some very knowledgeable people (including some professional window restorers) here that would be eager to help you learn. You can also hire a local restorer to do the work; paying them could cost as much as a low-mid-quality replacement, but the result would be of much higher quality and durability. If you want to learn how to do it yourself but want someone there to hold your hand, find a restorer that's willing to teach as you pay them to restore a window; I've found that most restorers are very interested in promoting preservation, even if it means that they won't be needed for future work. I know of a couple of companies on my side of the state (one in GR, one in Kzoo); there must be some over on the east side - especially around Ann Arbor.
Regarding efficiency: A pane of glass - or two or three, even with a layer of argon in between - is never going have an R-value anywhere near that of an insulated wall. Air sealing is the important part, and that's doable with either new or old windows. Be wary of the replacement window companies' claims about financial and environmental savings - they have a high up-front cost, can not be maintained by the homeowner, are made primarily of petroleum products, and require replacement - at another significant financial and environmental cost - within 20-30 years.
Hope this is useful. It ended up being really long. TL;DR: Radiant heat is great, mixed cast iron and baseboard radiators on the same zone can hamper performance but won't damage anything, and don't rush to replace old windows. Best wishes on your decision!
From the limited pictures, the house looks very nice - many of the original features appear to be intact.
AFAIK, mixing baseboard and cast iron radiators on the same zone (if that's the configuration in that house), while not optimal, won't hurt anything. The issue is that baseboard provides less radiation than the cast iron, so it usually has to run at higher temperatures. Therefore, you either have to run the zone hot (causing rooms with cast iron to be too warm), cold (rooms with baseboard chilly), or compromise in between (both problems, to a lesser extent). There are ways to mitigate this - partially closing the valves to the cast iron rads to restrict flow, for instance - but it won't be able to provide the same efficiency and comfort as a properly zoned system. You won't be damaging anything, though, and it's always possible to add zoning later (you'd probably need to cut into some walls to run piping, but running PEX is much less intrusive than other piping methods).
Radiant heat, properly configured, is the best heating system out there - very quiet, comfortable, flexible, and efficient - especially with a modulating-condensing boiler with outdoor-reset controls. Capacity permitting, the system can be extended to do in-floor heating, snow-melt, pool heating, (probably never the last two at our house:)), etc. Equipment tends to be more expensive, but it lasts much longer - when we were looking at houses, we saw two houses with the original 1920's boilers, converted from coal to natural gas, that worked well (though probably only 40-50% efficient). The big drawback is that you need to install a forced air system for things like A/C, humidification, etc.
We love our radiant system (all cast iron rads, new Viessmann mod-con boiler), and our most recent gas bill - which included the recent bitter cold snap - was only $210; not bad for a 97-year-old house with 58 windows (we have also insulated the heck out of it, and almost all of the windows have storms).
As far as inspecting the system goes: IMHO, the biggest problem would be leaks in the radiators or piping. A leaking radiator is usually not repairable, while repairing leaking pipes that are concealed in walls/ceilings is a pain. In a hydronic (rather than steam) system, these problems are usually caused by the pipes getting frozen. Corrosion should be minimal, as it's a closed system: once it's is filled with water and purged of air, very little oxygen is available to cause rust.
During inspection, if any radiators are failing to provide adequate heat, it's likely that they have some air inside of them. A tell-tale sign of this is that the radiator won't be warm all the way to the top. Each radiator has a bleeder valve on one side, near the top. To bleed a radiator, hold a container beneath the valve to catch any water, open the valve with a radiator key, wait for the hiss of air to turn into a trickle of water, then shut the valve (check for drips - those old valves sometimes need to be forced very tight). If the previous owners of the house were considerate, there might be a radiator key in the house somewhere (look near the boiler); otherwise, you can perhaps find one at a local hardware store (look for an older store with knowledgeable old-timers, and/or a store with a good plumbing department; avoid big-box stores), from a heating contractor, or online.
If the piping is mostly original, there's a good chance that the pipes are insulated with asbestos; this isn't hazardous, as long as the insulation is in good shape and not disturbed. It becomes an issue if you want to make changes, such as replacing the boiler. Our heating contractor required that we remove the asbestos from the pipes near the boiler. It is possible to do DIY asbestos removal (make sure to research the appropriate methods first - it's easy to create a huge mess if you don't do it right), but we decided to hire a company to remove it from all of the accessible piping.
There's likely to be an expansion tank in the attic. Ours is a big wood box (I'm assuming there's a metal tank inside - I haven't looked at it too closely). These tanks allowed the water level to rise and fall as its temperature changed. New systems have a small compression tank near the boiler to accomplish the same thing. Our contractor capped off the lines to the tank when our system was upgraded, but left the tank in place (it would need to be dismantled to be removed). Initially, they missed one of the lines, leading to water leaking out of the tank into the attic and all the way down to the first floor; thankfully our painter was working in the next room, and heard the dripping before it got too bad; the heating contractor paid to fix the (minimal) damage.
I'm happy to try to answer any additional heating questions you have about these systems; I've learned a lot over the past year about these systems, though I'm by no means an expert. I second the recommendation to check out the heatinghelp.com forums - the people there really know their stuff (most of the regulars are professional contractors).
Regarding the old windows: Don't rush to replace them! While some windows may be damaged beyond repair (if they're really bad - even sections of wood can be replaced), most can be refurbished at a much lower cost than replacement. The original windows were designed to be repaired as needed, and can last as long as the house with appropriate maintenance; replacement windows, however, usually can't be repaired - they must be replaced when they fail in 20 years (I recently saw a replacement window company promising decades - decades! - of service; my windows are almost a century old, and will easily last another century!). With good ropes and a proper paint job (some parts of a window sash and frame should be left bare), they operate very smoothly. Weatherstripping can be added to reduce air infiltration. Storm windows are perhaps the wisest investment: they provide very good insulation performance and protect the primary sashes from the elements. You can buy wooden storm windows that have interchangeable glass/screen panels that can be swapped from the inside, avoiding the need to get on the ladder each spring and fall.
Refurbishing old windows is a good DIY project (it is quite time-consuming), and you'll find some very knowledgeable people (including some professional window restorers) here that would be eager to help you learn. You can also hire a local restorer to do the work; paying them could cost as much as a low-mid-quality replacement, but the result would be of much higher quality and durability. If you want to learn how to do it yourself but want someone there to hold your hand, find a restorer that's willing to teach as you pay them to restore a window; I've found that most restorers are very interested in promoting preservation, even if it means that they won't be needed for future work. I know of a couple of companies on my side of the state (one in GR, one in Kzoo); there must be some over on the east side - especially around Ann Arbor.
Regarding efficiency: A pane of glass - or two or three, even with a layer of argon in between - is never going have an R-value anywhere near that of an insulated wall. Air sealing is the important part, and that's doable with either new or old windows. Be wary of the replacement window companies' claims about financial and environmental savings - they have a high up-front cost, can not be maintained by the homeowner, are made primarily of petroleum products, and require replacement - at another significant financial and environmental cost - within 20-30 years.
Hope this is useful. It ended up being really long. TL;DR: Radiant heat is great, mixed cast iron and baseboard radiators on the same zone can hamper performance but won't damage anything, and don't rush to replace old windows. Best wishes on your decision!
1916 Craftsman
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csnyder (WavyGlass)
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
phil wrote:joeny1980 wrote:$64k for a 4BR with almost 2500sqft sitting on an acre! Good lordy. I dont know Michigan, but how is that price for the area? To me its an almost hard-to-believe price.
It would be well over a million here,,
Over in Grand Rapids, perhaps $200-250k, depending on the individual characteristics. Our house was just over $200k and has almost identical specs (though our location is hard to price - unusually large lot for the city, excellent neighborhood, but just a block away from houses worth $30-80k).
I'd say that $64k for that house is a bargain almost anywhere, assuming that there are no major flaws. It's a foreclosure, according to the listing.
1916 Craftsman
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KirstenN (WavyGlass)
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
csnyder wrote:You can buy wooden storm windows that have interchangeable glass/screen panels that can be swapped from the inside, avoiding the need to get on the ladder each spring and fall.
Some of my storm windows are missing and need replacing... can you tell me more about these? Do you have a manufacturer name I can research? They sound ideal for my situation!
I'm in Canada but my brother will pick up in Duluth and deliver to me if I have it sent to his address there.
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csnyder (WavyGlass)
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
I'm not familiar with any particular manufacturers; I've seen them mentioned from time to time, but I can't find any manufacturers offhand. Perhaps one of the pros will chime in with a recommendation.
My house is missing a few storms, so I'm considering building them myself. Our back storm door has interchangeable glass and screens, and I think I can do the same thing on the window. It's quite simple, really - the outer frame has a rabbet facing to the interior, and each of the panels has a corresponding rabbet to give it a flush fit. The door panels are held in by bolts with washers, but I'd probably use turn buttons for the windows. I'm not sure how the commercially available windows are configured - I would think it's similar, but maybe they've devised a different system.
My house is missing a few storms, so I'm considering building them myself. Our back storm door has interchangeable glass and screens, and I think I can do the same thing on the window. It's quite simple, really - the outer frame has a rabbet facing to the interior, and each of the panels has a corresponding rabbet to give it a flush fit. The door panels are held in by bolts with washers, but I'd probably use turn buttons for the windows. I'm not sure how the commercially available windows are configured - I would think it's similar, but maybe they've devised a different system.
1916 Craftsman
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tolmiros (WavyGlass)
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
Once again thanks to all for the replies, some very valuable information has been provided that I will take into account should I get the house. Special thanks to the details on boiler / radiator heating systems and advise about the old home windows. I don't know when I would ever get to a window rehab project considering all the other issues. Based on the looks of the windows and doors, I bet the house is as leaky as a siv though, so I would need to address it soon...
Submitted the offer last Friday and still waiting on a response... I asked my agent to reach out to the selling agent and was told they are still waiting for the asset manager to make a decision. BLEH! I've been praying the Lords will in the end... because after all, He knows best. Kind of one of those payers like "Lord, I pray for your will, but please let your will be that I get this house..." ha ha.
If it is accepted, I will make sure and take more pictures next time i'm out to the house to post here.
Also, I agree that it seems like a very good deal, though I am waiting for an inspector to say " I found [insert fatal flaw], and it's going to cost a lot of money to fix'... but it also wouldn't surprise me if that weren't the case. Considering the area is fairly rural, a good 10-15 minute drive to the closest grocery store and almost any amenity, combined with the fact that the Michigan economy stinks, the house needs a lot of work, and it's a foreclosure... the price doesn't seem all that unreasonable, though I would certainly say it leans towards a good deal on the buyers side.
Cheers.
Submitted the offer last Friday and still waiting on a response... I asked my agent to reach out to the selling agent and was told they are still waiting for the asset manager to make a decision. BLEH! I've been praying the Lords will in the end... because after all, He knows best. Kind of one of those payers like "Lord, I pray for your will, but please let your will be that I get this house..." ha ha.
If it is accepted, I will make sure and take more pictures next time i'm out to the house to post here.
Also, I agree that it seems like a very good deal, though I am waiting for an inspector to say " I found [insert fatal flaw], and it's going to cost a lot of money to fix'... but it also wouldn't surprise me if that weren't the case. Considering the area is fairly rural, a good 10-15 minute drive to the closest grocery store and almost any amenity, combined with the fact that the Michigan economy stinks, the house needs a lot of work, and it's a foreclosure... the price doesn't seem all that unreasonable, though I would certainly say it leans towards a good deal on the buyers side.
Cheers.
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csnyder (WavyGlass)
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Re: Opinions On Potential Purchase of Old Home
Blessings as you wait - that's got to be nerve-wracking. Banks can be a pain to deal with; my brother and his wife bought a house on a short-sale, and they waited months for the bank to get their act together (even their Realtor was getting annoyed with the wait); their wait was abnormally long, though.
If the windows are drafty, there are stop-gap measures that you can take (plastic, rope-caulk [not regular caulk - it should be easily removable], etc.) until you decide to spend the money and/or time to address the issue. If you get quotes for replacement, try to find at least one restorer to give you a quote as well. If you end up going the replacement route, put the old sashes in storage somewhere - a future owner (or your future self) may want to restore them to original.
I'll get off the window restoration pulpit now. I had a similar mindset to yours a year ago, until we bought our house and saw the beauty, functionality, and efficiency of intact original windows. If your only experience with old windows is with ones that are painted shut, with broken ropes and failing putty (like the ones in my family's house growing up), it's hard to imagine how they'll function when they're properly maintained.
If the windows are drafty, there are stop-gap measures that you can take (plastic, rope-caulk [not regular caulk - it should be easily removable], etc.) until you decide to spend the money and/or time to address the issue. If you get quotes for replacement, try to find at least one restorer to give you a quote as well. If you end up going the replacement route, put the old sashes in storage somewhere - a future owner (or your future self) may want to restore them to original.
I'll get off the window restoration pulpit now. I had a similar mindset to yours a year ago, until we bought our house and saw the beauty, functionality, and efficiency of intact original windows. If your only experience with old windows is with ones that are painted shut, with broken ropes and failing putty (like the ones in my family's house growing up), it's hard to imagine how they'll function when they're properly maintained.
1916 Craftsman