Serious plaster repair

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eclecticcottage
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Serious plaster repair

Post by eclecticcottage »

So one on going point of contention with my soon to be new Old House is the walls. Or more specifically, the condition of the plaster on them. The POs put in blown in, so there are probably a couple hundred holes that were filled all over. Every room as some cracking. some of it is loose. In general, it looks pretty bad. One room, they tried peeling wallpaper, didn't succeed and painted over the remenants.

I've been trying to get estimates on new drywall, or repair. It's a big project (1700 sq ft) and haven't nailed down a contractor yet. I've never been really good at taping and mudding drywall...but...I'm starting to think I might end up with this part of the job. On the plus side, I'd probably spend less $$. BUT I need a professional quality looking job-smooth paint ready walls. Is this something a to DIY? We have our share of home improvement projects that we've accomplished, and DH is actually good at mudding and taping so he can probably direct me some, but I don't want to compromise quality for a savings. I can't imagine the dumpsters needed if I have to tear all of this plaster and lath out though. Plus then I'd be reinsulating since the blown in would all end up coming out. I can post more pics with better detail later, but here's some

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One thing to note if you haven't seen my other threads. I am buying, fixing and reselling this home, so I do have a time constraint. I will be having a roof and some other things done so I am estimating holding it for 2-3 months before putting it back on the market, but I'll still need to do the bathrooms, kitchen, paint and floors-all of which will have to come AFTER the plaster/drywall. Carrying costs are looking like about $400-600 a month (depending on heating costs, that includes fun stuff like taxes, heat, electric, water, insurance). But the only half concrete estimate from a contractor that seems to have it together was $10K, so even an extra month if this only costs $3k (totally guessing) is still a big savings-PLUS I will still have original plaster walls in the end.

Am I about to hate myself for even thinking of this?

My ultimate goal would have been to find an old time pro that let me watch him/her so I could learn technique. So far, no dice. looks like youtube and knowledge from folks here and on the interwebs in general if I try this.

eclecticcottage
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Re: Serious plaster repair

Post by eclecticcottage »

Also, silly question, but if I am insane enough to attempt this...

Can I skim over the paint? Obviously, 99% of it is painted.

I am excited about this place and the learning opportunity, but it will be someone's home. If this is truly a huge undertaking, this is not the place to do it-I will defer to pros and eat the reduced profit. My main thought behind doing it myself is that I haven't yet found the right contractor. I thought I might have, but 3 days later he hasn't contacted me back to do a walk through. I'll follow up one more time, but I don't want someone I have to chase-that doesn't bode well for the job itself IMO.

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Kmarissa
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Re: Serious plaster repair

Post by Kmarissa »

Eclecticcottage, it could just be my reading comprehension right now (my brain is a bit non-functioning this morning) but I think it may be a bit unclear exactly what you're asking in the thread and are proposing to do. You mentioned that you might be DIYing drywall installation but then mention a benefit being that you would end up with original plaster afterward, which I'm not sure I understand. Are you asking about the possibility of repairing the cracking plaster yourself versus having a pro do repairs? Or versus taking it out and installing drywall? Or DIYing drywall versus hiring a pro to do it? I just figure you might get more helpful responses with a bit more clarity of exactly what you're asking. :)

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Re: Serious plaster repair

Post by Lily left the valley »

My two copper here is from one who is still an apprentice at best in the deeper than just a simple repaint plastered walls restore department.

One thing I would ask before answering DIY or contract is how much of the plaster is sagging/pulled out? If you have to do a lot of those sorts of fixes on top of however much sanding and skimming...add that to your time spent. I'd like to hope since they did the blown in that they would have done that at the same time...but who knows?

I dug up one thread about painting over wallpaper. I know there was another about painting and wallpaper in general since I joined here, but I'm just not finding it right now. I'm sure there are many posts that touch on this, but that'd be a lot of search result sorting.
--Proud member of the Industrious Cheapskate Club
--Currently pondering ways to encourage thoughtful restovation and discourage mindless renovation.

eclecticcottage
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Re: Serious plaster repair

Post by eclecticcottage »

Haha, sorry, typing quick.

I have been trying to get quotes on either all new drywall or plaster repair, so far to no avail. My preference is to save the plaster, but I will have to go with what I can actually accomplish either myself or via contractor. I want a quality job, either way. I'm unsure if I can accomplish it never having tried-but I don't entirely know what is involved in trying, yet.

I am considering doing the plaster repair myself. There is some cracking. A lot of it just looks...kind of rough (like as in the texture). I will have to see if I have any better photos. It's just not smooth (it's not textured on purpose, it's just not well kept). I know some cracking can be repaired with a washer/screw type set up, to draw everything back together. Basically it looks like the whole place needs a good skim coat and some crack repair. The condition doesn't come through well in photos-however all of the holes/subsequent "patches" (not done well) from the blown in are obvious. I have a couple ceilings with fallen plaster-those I will very likely contract out no matter what. I can't lift sheets of drywall myself (DH is recovering from back surgery and isn't able to participate in this project in any way)-nor do I want to (I did the bath ceiling in The Old House and do NOT want to ever do that again). I might cheat and do "tin" (fiber) ceiling tiles in the kitchen.

for instance, there's a big ole crack in the wall where the door is in this photo, but you can't really tell

Image

There is one actual hole with missing plaster in the stairwell. I am pretty sure that the people that did the cleanout for the bank cause it, as well as the loose railing, but I can't say 100% for certain. It just doesn't follow with the condition in the rest of the house. I've read about the "top hat" (or something like that) method of repair for this and am willing to try since it's a wall.

phil
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Re: Serious plaster repair

Post by phil »

yes you can skimcoat over paint if you want to but i'd rough up the paint first and if it is falling apart then it won't help. you could use a random orbital sander on the existing paint with about 80 grit to roughen and flatten the wall. if it's leaded paint then dust may be an issue.
its possible to V groove your plaster cracks and fill them. It is also possible to use my glue and tape method to stop the cracks from coming through. you cna use washers but if the key is broken the plaster may not be very stable. If you start hammering on a plaster wall it will crack, then crack more then it will all crash to the floor. it is very brittle stuff. as long as it isn't super cracked up it is fixable.

yes you can fix the plaster if you want, repair the cracks and skim coat and repaint.

how much do you care about having the original plaster?

its already insulated so you don't need to open walls for that.

I'd pull the baseboards and trim, you can strip the paint and show the wood if you want .
use 1/4" drywall its not too heavy so it will make lifting easier and you don't' have to demo the walls.

if you put 1/4" drywall over the side with the windows you'll need to cut strips to fill the space between the window frames and window casings. You might choose to restore the plaster on that wall to keep the original thickness.

the skimcoating you can learn and if you have questions just ask. You have a chance to practice if you are up for it. It will definitely get you moving around and I can't judge if you are up for it but it isn't heavy work really, just lots or reaching and it will take time. You can always get a drywall filler to help if you get sick of it. you can rent or borrow a drywall lifter to do the ceiling. the stuff on the walls wont' be too hard. If you want just nail a board to the wall about 1/4" lower than the bottom edge and you can set the drywall on that and then pry it up to the ceiling and get your first screws in so you aren't trying to hold the sheet and screw it on. If you have a helper all the better.
if you don't' want to rent the lifter just screw a couple 2x4's together to make a T make it about an inch short of the ceiling that way if you are able to lift it up then you can stick your T in underneath to hold it up there while you go look for your screw gun you can make 2 or three T's. Once you get a few screws in you are home free.

if you lean one T against the wall then you can lift one edge on top near the ceiling and then stick the other T in and I sometimes just do it myself this way With a back issue you need to be more careful but you can still likely manage the 1/4 inch stuff if you use that.

You have to locate all the studs. don't try to screw to the lath it won't grab. You can drill with a tiny drill bit and note where it will poke through into the insulation , if you get the bit in an inch you know you are through the plaster then if the bit can be pushed easily you didn't hit the stud.. once you get going you can find them all and mark them and then snap lines. that way all your screws can hit the center of each stud. be careful not to drill into any wiring.

Its hard to judge the condition of the actual plaster without stripping. the cracks can telegraph through your finish if you don't fix them and just skim coat. If you feel it's destructive to put 1/4" drywall in front of the plaster than don't do it but i think that's the fastest and easiest way to achieve a perfectly flat wall If that's what you want.

If you chose you could repair the cracks, strip any loose paint and then primer, skim coat, primer again , then paint it.

one thing that might mess you up is if you have layers that aren't attached well now. If you just skim coat you can make it look perfect but it might not last if it isn't at least a stable surface. in many houses the initial paint coat n top of the plaster was water soluble calcimine paint so you could have issues with that failing and you could likely just strip a little spot to see whats under there and if it's water soluble. If its not stuck good, well it's disappointing if you finish it and then have adhesion issues but likely you'd get away with it.

all the reaching may hurt your back or it might be just perfect exercise for your condition. I don't know but other than that you can do it, you can learn any technique and you could watch a few Utube videos on skim coating and taping etc. I just watch lots and then do it my own way but it's a good way to get some good tips.

I'm doing my living room now. If I wanted it fast I'd hire it out but I am happy to take my time and I do a lot of things a commercial guy just wouldn't take time to do. for example I use corner bead in every corner instead of tape. i mix carpenters glue in the mud I use for taping and initially. I soak the tape and the ( paper-metal) corner bead in a 50/50 glue/water mix. I don't' use mud with glue that to fill at all , this gets the tape and corner bead super flat with the wall , then I start skim coating.. the commercial guys put more mud behind the tape, then they use filler to build out the wall near the tape and hide the tape that way. My way takes longer but I get a better job that way and my tape never ever lifts or peels..
if you mix carpenters glue into your mud it makes it as hard as plaster. it cheap but you can't sand it so it's something you have to be careful with. you have to catch any drips or runs or they cause trouble. It isn't for surface filling I do use it to fill gaps and attach my tape but I never try to build the surface using my glue mud mix.

if you have huge gaps to fill you can mix some plaster and add that to mud. it dries fast so you only have limited working time but if you have say a 1/2 x 1/2" gap in your drywall you can fill that in one go before you begin taping. If you did that with mud you'd have a drippy mess and if it did stay in the gap it would shrink and crack and you'ld have to do it a couple times.

I fill the gaps before I tape or mud. I do lots of skim coating to get a pretty perfect job. I don't' use paints or brushes to create a lot of stipple to hide my defects I instead work a little harder to get them more perfect and smooth without waviness. It all takes time.

if you hired a "real drywaller" to do it they would use tape on all the inside corners, not corner bead. the corner bead makes the corners straight and crisp. they usually just use the corner bead on outside corners so if you knock the corner it doesn't damage so easy. They wouldn't spend a lot of time filling it before applying tape. they have machines to apply the tape and mud very quickly and they are pros at it . they can do it a lot faster than you or I can but you have to pay them ;-)

if you went the 1/4" drywall route you have some trim off the baseboards and the room would become 1/4" smaller the outlets would no longer be flush so you can move them or you can use "box extenders" I just moved mine and made them right. I wouldn't bury the baseboards or they will be thin and it'll look like a crappy reno. I run my drywall to the floor and then put the baseboards back over top later. if you pull your baseboards you may be able to see better how the insulation is in there. they might have sort of glued the baseboard in place if they used foam. the lath probably stops just above the baseboard. you might have a chance to stuff more insulation in there from below. you'd have to open it to see whats going on there.

I used 1/2 inch on some walls. I put 1/2" on the ceiling because you want it really flat. the 1/4" stuff does flatten the wall but if the wall is warped it will follow the warp as it is more bendy than thicker stuff. what I do is use green glue
http://www.greengluecompany.com/
You can glue the drywall on , the green glue isn't glue for attachment, its is only for soundproofing. you still screw it on with as many screws as normal. Its possible to glue the drywall on with something like PL glue and just use a few screws but I don't' like that route. the screws pull everything up tight.

never use drywall nails. the only place I use them is to put just a few near my corner beads. I don't' nail through the bead I just put them right beside the tin so the head of the nail holds the tin part. I just use a few so the corner bead can't pop before it dries but it really isn't' necessary. there are a variety of types of corner bead. I like the onethat is metal with a thin paper on them. I found heavy ones and light ones. I use the lighter ones for inside corners, they dont' get knocked. i use the heavy ones for outside corners.

In my case it is very noisy so I opened walls and insulated and used sound proof drywall
https://www.quietrock.com/

If you do any walls that may end up being a shared wall with a suite use 5/8ths fireproof drywall to meet code or check your code.

Phil

eclecticcottage
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Re: Serious plaster repair

Post by eclecticcottage »

Thank you!

I've spoken to two drywall guys that said 1/4" was a waste of time. Interesting to hear from someone using it that doesn't think so.

Saving the original plaster is a bonus. Getting the walls to look good is the real goal. Most everything is straight, just ugly. I do have wallpaper to contend with in three rooms plus the one that had the paint over semi-stripped wallpaper.

Also, one of the goals is NOT to remove all of the trim. I have a LOT of it, and that would not be fun-plus there's the possibility of breaking/damage. I don't have the time to strip it all, I think I'll leave that as one of those things the future owner can take on if they so choose.

What product is best to use for skimming the plaster?

I know I can google all of this, but I like asking here since generally the responses involve some personal experiance and knowledge. I am still trusting random people on the internet, but everyone is here because of an interest in old houses and preservation, vs random people that might have had a crack in the plaster they don't really care about, other than not looking at it lol.

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Re: Serious plaster repair

Post by phil »

drywall comes in about 5 types. Joint compound is a powder and contains plaster you cna use that for filling big chunks. . it sets very fast. taping compound is for bedding tape. General purpose compound can be used for filling. for final finishing you can get "classic" which has finer granules. I'd use general purpose or the classic finish type for final finishing. Now someone might pipe up and say use plaster for plaster. and you can do that. some even like to color their plaster rather than painting.

If it were me I'd use a good primer like Kilz or an oil based primer. then I'd use joint compound first for any depressions o rif adhesion worries you. , then I'd probably switch to general purpose or classic finish and I am referring to the Synco brand name but of course there are a variety of competitors. I always see the yellow box - taping , the blue box -general purpose and the red box Classic finish doesn't always seem to be on the shelf. here's the website
https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/en_C ... pound.html

now there are some epoxy based fillers and things others here have been using and maybe you can also let them chime in to teach you more about different plaster variations. normally when they do plaster they do a scratch coat which may contain horse hair and coarser grits and sand it looks almost like concrete, that's to adhere to the lath, then they use a finer skim coating plaster similar to plaster of Paris but there may be more info to glean from those restoring more plaster the traditional way.

the 1/4" is not suitable alone for a wall that didn't have anything else but you have the plaster as backing. but this does require removing any trim or you'd partially bury your trim. Don't do that.
once you have done some skim coating then it gets hard to tell where the issues are and where your fresh mud it as it becomes all white. I'd get close and then primer and use a heavy nap to make it stipple, then when you go back to skim coating you will be looking at the flatness of the wall and you won't be so tempted to oversand areas that are already pretty close. the primer's stipple helps apply more and anyway That's how I like to do it. Just don't leave too much on if you have to sand lots you are doing something wrong.

when I skim coat I use a wide knife. i like to use a plastic tray not one of those tin platforms but its just preference. If I want a break I put a wet paper towel over it and its ok for a while like that. what I do is load the knife and clean the backside and knock the mud off the corners. go up to the corner and press your blade down flat. I try to squeeze it down until I see some oozing out along the corner. you wan it right up into the corner. do whatever is comfortable maybe 2 to 3 feet back from the corner. Just cover it with mud don't worry if it looks a bit messy put lots on.

then I do it again but this time the wall is wet with mud. I dont' put much on the knife, maybe a 1/2" bead. most of my mud for that stroke is already on the wall so Ill get back more than I deliver on the second pass over that spot.
again clean off the back of the knife by scraping on the tray and knock the mud off the corners of the blade or youll drop mud and itll leave larger bridges near the edge of the knife. its best if you clean both sides of the blade , then pick up fresh mud within 1/2" or so of the end of the blade. If you drop mud let it go , Youll drop less with practice. its easier to clean up if you leave the powder from sanding on the floor but you can use tarps or mop up.

put that second knife load tight in the corner and push the knife almost flat to the wall press fairly firmly. Pull back slowly and youll see the mud lay perfectly flat. I do one row anbout 2-3 feet like that and move over the width of the blade and overlap to fix the bridges you've left. then start moving away from the corner. as you go fix anywhere you have lumps ( avoid sanding them) plan to do this about 3 times but you cna do it until you are happy. after its dry sand everywhere gently or at least knock any bumps off with your knife. I always sand drywall in circles or ovals it's not like sanding wood. use one of those foam pads with grit that's made for that. the tapered ones are good for corners.

what I mean by bridges is the squeeze out you'll see near the edges of your blade. if you wait until its sort of half hard you can go knock them off or do it when its dry.

when you take mud from the bucket run your knife around the bucket with the blade flat to the bucket, don't dig a hole You don't want mud to dry on the sides of your bucket so keep the top neat. never return mud to your bucket. if you get chunks mixed into your mud throw it away. the synco stuff comes in a plastic bag inside a cardboard box. when you get it peel the plastic back and invert the whole works into a bucket than remove whats left of the plastic bag. Never try to take mud from theplastic bag, youll only end up with lumpy mud. use a bucket always. I also use two buckets. one for washing tools, the other for the mud. never wash your tools in the sink it'll clog your drains.

mix your skim coating mud quite thin , about as thin as you can without dropping it all over. as you go it will become more dry when that happens dip your knife in a bucket of water. and then go back and mix the mud up in your tray to restore consistency.

initially you can mix your mud with a drill and add a bit of water but be careful as you can't easily remove the water. the more water the more shrinkage but you want the right consistency. try not to introduce air bubbles so don't' mix at maximum speed. if you don't thin your mud a bit you won't have much sucess with skimcoating you want it more like pancake batter than peanut butter. if you tip your tray it will move but it won't swish to one end like water. you wouldn't be able to just pour it out of your tray but you want it a little runny. as you take more and add it to your existing mud youll see how it gets more creamy. thats because you will be filtering ou tthe creamy stuff between your blade and the surface. the consistency is important. It'll come naturally after a while. same with your blade angles and pressure you have to practice it then youll get what I mean.

usually when I take more mud I also mix it well with whats in the tray and don't try to use the last bit. you may find the granules get coarse when you run low. the process filters out he coarser particles, You can loose that last bit of mud if you find its getting too gritty. If you get mud on your hand or on your handles stop and clean them off, You cant work with mud on your hands as you won't have as much control. If you find a chunk pick it out , usually i pick up any chunks on the blade and I scrape them off at the end of the tray not the side to get rid of them. later you can pick them up with the blade and wipe them on a paper towel. If they get mixed in , throw it out , start a new fresh tray.
every once in a while take your tray and rotate it 180 degrees. it'll help you keep the mud consistent in your tray.

after you are done when you return sand or scrape and remove any lumps It should be flatter. Now do the process again but this time turn yourself 90 degrees and go the other way. itll take an hour or two to get the knack of it then you will always be able to do this and you won't have to hire people.
as the surface gets flatter your mud consumption will go down, You ll find it gets easier because youll be basicly filling depressions not building the whole surface. you may find you hold the knife a bit differently as you won't be building the whole surface but youll be filling very shallow holes. the closer you get to perfect, the easier it will be to apply the mud. If you want to go in an arc with your knife you can do that as well. in corners always do one side of the corner and leave it when its dry you can do the other side of the corner.

at first it'll feel awkward and you'll be dropping mud, but after you do that room you'll hate hiring drywallers because they don't' do it as well as you. You'll see where they skipped corners and left imperfections and it'll bug you so much you'll wan to do it yourself because you will know you can do a better job. You wont' be as fast but you will probably find it very satisfying work. Novices will make big lumps and then try to sand them off but you'll soon find it isn't necessary to do much sanding at all.

eclecticcottage
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Re: Serious plaster repair

Post by eclecticcottage »

Thank you again! I will have to read that after dinner.

Here's a better pic that shows some cracking and the unevenness

Image

phil
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Re: Serious plaster repair

Post by phil »

from that it doesn't look that bad. You can see where the lath is giving way on the ceiling. If it were me and I didn't want ot pul the trim, then I'd screw 1/4" over only the slanted ceiling and that would help hold what's there in place and help flatten it out. you could still use some plaster washers.
In mine I made the three corners, the ones that aren't 90 degrees, a bit rounded and the drywallers started that by adding some screws that weren't driven all the way in and tape but If I did it again I'd look for suitable curved corner bead. My attic ceiling is just like that. Because you are so close to it and because you look along the surface and the angle of light from the window, it is more obvious if there are imperfections. Its really easy to bump the ceiling and gravity isn't working to your advantage. If the rest looks like the pic I'd just sand and then skinmcoat the walls and do the 1/4 drywall on the ceiling, unless you want to add insulation. you could choose to use the plaster washers and skimcoat the ceiling but it is showing some bulging there and i'd be afraid it may come back if its not secured better.
What I'd do and what you want to do may differ and that's OK. I'm mostly trying to help by sharing my experiences and what I've learned. I hired drywallers to do my attic and I ended up ripping most of their tape out and doing lots of skimcoating because I really wasn't happy with their work and they did stuff like filling big gaps and laying tape in one go. , or worse not even filling the void, just hiding it with tape. the rounded corners weren't very even and it took a lot of work to make it look right. even still I got some cracking where the butt joints are and one day I'll want to fix that by digging their tape out and maybe adding some better blocking to screw to near where the sheets meet. I had to fix a lot of their taping issues and the bright side was that I learned to use the glue as I described, and taught myself to skimcoat.

the reason I'd use 1/4 and not thicker is because you only have so much ceiling height. Its no more expensive to use 1/2"

another thing I'd do that you may or may not want to do is to use the corner bead. it'll straighten up any rounded or cracked corners and when you go to skimcoating it just gives you an already perfect corner to work to. I find it easier and it isn't expensive to buy. I'd bed the corner bead as I described, then go on to skim coating. Id still use the corner bead if I didn't use drywall. you can get corner bead with those angles. you might have to first chisel out any material that stops it from sitting squarely. the corner bead and glue makes a strong joint at the corner. it also brings the corner about 1 mm outward and that tiny bit gives you something to ride the knife along to build out the surface so you can flatten it through skimcoating.
i got mine very flat and smooth and when I painted I used oil based and rolled it on and followed with a brush to knock the stipple down as I was going for a smooth surface. If you allow more stipple it hides flaws.
if you want any rounded corners there are some good utube videos on installing bullnose corner bead.

I did one room where I stripped all the wallpaper, I washed all the water soluble primer off. I taped every single hairline crack in the plaster with my glue mud technique. it looked like a spider web but it wasn't bulging. I. used the corner bead and taping mud to initially skimcoat and then went to regular mud and then the classic mud. It worked perfectly but it was a lot more work and in the end I felt it was harder that way and the results were visually exactly the same. I do notice that that room is colder and louder with no insulation but it's a guest bedroom and not often used. as I wen to other areas I opted to open it up and insulate it. I didn't use any drywall in that room.

I did learn some techniques working with them so it wasn't a total loss but we got into an argument because they didn't do some work that we had initially outlined verbally as being part of the job. Namely the closets in the attic and two walls in the kitchen. In the end I let it go and paid them. They put up 40 sheets of 10' drywall in about 2 weeks and at the time it was about 3K so I felt they did enough work for what I paid for but their initial quote was probably too low and I was unhappy with their quality level. Your experiences will differ of course. If I hired guys again I'd be more specific about the quote and I should have broken the job down into a few days work at a time. It probably would have worked better if I just had them put the stuff on the wall and did the taping and finishing myself , that way I would have had more control over the quality level.

oh I mentioned using primer between your skimcoating layers in my previous post. I was just going to say if you do that you don't need to go crazy with the primer. Just a thin coat is all you need , you'll end up primering it when you are really finished anyway and if you do need to sand through the primer anywhere its best if its not super thick at that stage.

Good luck with the job. I hope it goes well. It would be great to see pics of your progress.

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