Older homes and insulation

[phil]

I justtook out a bunch of ceiling tiles like that. I had mine tested for asbestos and they were not asbestos. they had a metal track above that held them in place so you may have an airspace of an inch or so above yours if they used these tracks. You could probably just push a bit of stiff wire through them to see if they are in contact with whatever is above them or if they were mounted on metal tracks like mine were.

like yours , mine had paneling and beaverboard int he attic so it was absolutley no issue to take that out. I insulated with fiberglass but have been disappointed withit's sound blocking abilities and as aI have been opening walls I tend to use roxul instead.

I just did my living room exterior walls with isoboard which is essentially like spray foam only in sheets. some has a foil coating and that serves as a vapor barrier. I bought sheets and then cut them to fit the stud bays and used canned sparay foam to seal the edges. and then put soundproof drywall.

I was going to say one option is to leave your roof be and then put strapping and insulation and make a ridge vent and that can be done from the outside without loosing ceiling hieght but your metal roof might be in nice shape and you may not really want to replace the roof at this point, but if the roof is bad it's an option.

one thing I did to make it bearable in summer is put an air conditioner in a box and it required some sheet metal work but I collect fresh air from under the eves and blow that through the cold side of the AC unit and into the bedroom so I have a supply of fresh cool air and the AC unit is behind a wall and in a box so it is quiet and doesn't block the window. It also turns on a big blower that evacuates lots of air from the non living side of the wall and that air also cools the AC unit. i installed an octagon louvered vent on the opposite end to supply fresh air to the blower.

The outside edges of my attic are closed in and it's storage in there now. I put roxul in the floor and then sleeted with painted plywood and I have insulated doors to get in there. It does get hot in there in summer. i put some insulation in the wall between but it could be more. the attic framing is pretty open still so although I have heat loss I don't' have a hot roof and I don't' think the framing is getting damp or anything. Below the living area of my attic I don't see much point in insulating much since any heat that gets through there just warms the bedroom floor.

a pretty simple solution with dealing with humidity might just be a fan hooked up to a timer similar to one used in a bathroom so it switches on when humidity is high. I think you can also have a sensor that will turn your attic fan on if it's over a certain temperature.

after what I have done I don't' see any signs of humidity at all it is very dry but I didn't insulate my roof outside of the living space and above the living space there is only some fiberglass and I don't' think that does much. I think it's kind of loose so the air can get above it. I'm thinking about putting insulation over my roof at some point and leaving my present roof right where it is and I may be able to time that project to the point where I need new duride shingles. I think in my house this is now the best bang for the buck and although it seems like a huge project the strapping and new roof overtop is less labor intensive than tearing my attic ceiling up to do anything differently. at the same time I'd install a ridge vent and leave space with the strapping and insulation size so I had a gap between the outer plywood and the insulation which would sit on top of the existing roof. it probably also requires reworking the gutters and the fascia boards which it could use anyway. visually the roof would be a bit thicker but I could live with that.

I wish I had known more about soundproofing. I could install more sound proof drywall over what I have now and that would be a help but its "finished looking" up there now so I have bigger fish to fry for now. I got some bags of fiberglass insulation for free so I may double up the insulation on the outside of the wall that separates the living space from the non living space.. as it is now I put some fiberglass and the only plastic I used was just white plastic to contain the insulation on the non living side of the wall. I don't; think its the correct place for vapor barrier but I dont' think it's causing an issue and can be removed easily since I don't' plan to drywall the non living side of the wall. If I did I'd remove the plastic. it's a triangular space about 4 feet tall tapering to nothing at the edges but it's the length of my house on both sides. this was dead space when we bought but it's nice to have it as storage now.

[JacquieJet]

Sorry Gibson! Didn't mean to leave you out. Thanks for the link. And also the great advice!
For the record, it is an original stucco home... when we opened up a wall for repairs a couple years ago we found out the it is double layered cinderblock underneath the stucco/behind the lathe (no brick). I guess the structure was made from the cinderblock and then the cement "stucco" was sprayed overtop.
As for the basement, it's a bit of a mess at the moment, no vapour barrier that I know of, and the floor is poured concrete that seems about 1/2 inch thick. Definitely something to tackle in the years to come (or if I win the millions? LOL). In the loft, there currently is no venting that I am aware of, aside from the 3 drafty windows.

Kmarissa, thanks for sharing. I figured that other people must have run into this before!

Phil, once again thanks for sharing your experience! I'm pretty sure my ceiling tiles are not asbestos, just because of the time period they were installed (done by a PO's dad). But, probably a good idea to check into that just in case. Our roof is actually new, we just had it done in July, so I won't be modifying it. I will however look into alternate ventilation, as clearly this is important. One thing about our house is that it is remarkably soundproof already- not really sure why. Sound just does not travel here! It's kind of a running joke, actually. It's happened several times where my husband will be calling for me, or I him, and it doesn't matter how loudly we shout, the person one floor up cannot hear a whisper of it. Either that, or we both have selective hearing

[GibsonGM]

We've been considering blown-in insulation in the space above the attic ceiling (there's an open space above the attic ceiling, going up to the attic peak) but now I'm wondering if GibsonGM's comments regarding condensation on the underside of the insulation might be applicable to our situation as well where the upper attic space opens up to the walls..

To the best of my knowledge, if the rest of the house isn't insulated, you can't just pop a "cap" on top...so your instinct seems to have been right in line with good, logical reasoning! We have to be aware of how much moisture we have being generated in the home, and also how much is present just from natural processes...we're heating, after all. Winter is the 'danger time' up north here. Maybe you COULD let the walls "bypass" the 'cap', but we're now getting into some 'odd' things, that I'm not seeing a reason to do (?)

It's not an utterly difficult subject, but it CAN be very mind-twisting to try to always keep in mind "what happens when warm air hits cold?". A: it gives up its moisture. So 35% RH air at 70F, with a dew point of 41F, going thru your wall - eventually hits a spot where it is 41F or below....and the water comes out of the air. whether it's onto a nail or an entire area of sheathing board. This is why an attic can at times have frost on its underside...air from inside is migrating up and hitting that cold surface. It is also why windows frost. And it is why it is quite often a VERY bad idea to vent a crawlspace to the outside on a humid, hot day!! Air will send its moisture TO the drier area...

The entire goal of good insulating is to be sure that any moisture-containing air migrating from indoors to out will not meet that dew point til it's OUTSIDE the home. And let's not forget that we don't WANT air transfer, ha ha, but it is going to happen here and there. The air is the cargo train, and as it cools, it has to let off passengers

Kmarissa, now that it's getting colder, have you been monitoring the humidity level up there at all? A cheapo humidity gauge will do fine. It is very educational to watch for a while (a few months!), see how your house is 'breathing'. You can learn a lot, and learn whether a dehumidifier is necessary. Houses can take up and give back a lot of moisture; how well it works out depends on how wet we're allowing it to get indoors.

My take is that if you aren't insulating the entire home, you shouldn't do a portion of roof/attic that way (chimney effect, too). There's noting wrong with insulating - old homes will live LONGER, in my opinion, if people can live in them and enjoy them (!)...they sit empty if they're uncomfortable in winter, or become summer homes and decay. Wall cavities become mouse hotels. They are a lot more fire safe when insulated, too. But as you suspected, you need someone who understands that air/moisture interplay, and YOU collecting data about the humidity can help a lot (I have 2 or 3 digital humidity gauges...one on dehumidifier in basement, one on each floor...they interplay when we cook or take a shower!). The structure can absorb a LOT of moisture without molding, it is surprising, but not on a daily/regular basis without drying. Insulating cost is NOT high if using dense pack...so really, there is little to fear or turn away from...the original builders/owners of these homes WOULD have had it done if it was available, just as readily as we installed central heat and flush toilets, LOL!

A REPUTABLE, knowledgeable insulating contractor is the whole deal....call a person or 2 that had them do work several years ago, find out how it went, how their home is doing now. They should have a big history of doing old homes like ours, which they probably will as this is the ONLY widely used tech for post-insulating.

The other option is leave it alone and live with it as-is. Phil's description is also a way to get the same thing done, and there's nothing wrong with it (I did my 2nd floor gable ends the same way, w/foamboard & canned spray foam, to show the BEAM across which would've been lost if I did dense pack there to correct thickness). Just trying to give you the 'hire it out' way...I'd much prefer a blow-in solution for that unless I were doing it myself and could supervise the quality, it's pretty hands-on!

[GibsonGM]

Hi JJ, no worries, LOL! Ok, so you SHOULD, I believe, at least talk with a big insulation pro (Mike Holmes nearby? ha ha). Uninsulated block can allow cold moist air transfer, and if you over-insulate above it may lead to problems.
You COULD just run a dehumidifier up there, not elegant but a "solution" of some sort. It's all about keeping moisture down, after all.

If you have a poured cement 'floor', even if thin.....if it is continuous and "joined" to itself slab-like...there is a product called "Radon Seal" that may be able to seal it up against moisture infiltration! So instead of ripping it out, you might be able to seal it, keeping the basement less humid which thus = less moisture moving to the other floors...

[JacquieJet]

Hahaha, Mike Holmes! Blue wood EVERYWHERE! lol
Yes, I will definitely contact a professional about this, and will ask about dense pack. Thank you Gibson for steering me in the right direction on this!!
Our basement is incredibly damp, we actually have two dehumidifiers going all the time to combat it. Eventually we want to finish the space, which would mean we would need to dig down a couple of feet to give enough head room to use it as a living space, and that will take a lot of time and $$ do do it right (supporting the foundation etc), so who knows when that will happen. Perhaps in the meantime looking into Radon Seal would be wise. Thanks!

[phil]

Our basement is incredibly damp, we actually have two dehumidifiers going all the time to combat it.

would it help to dig a hole and install a pump to keep the water table a bit lower? or dig the storm drains lower?
maybe that would help dry up the basement?

There are experts and insulating and creating efficient homes is studied a lot by current engineers. new buildings being designed with zero heat loss ( or whats lost being made up by solar etc) but because you have an old house and probably want to live in it while you renovate, this has to happen in steps so maybe it would pay to hire a pro for advice on where best to start. If you have walls open there is no better time of course. Sometimes it's a matter of how much you like plaster or your siding compared to how much you want insulation.
In my living room I had pondered over and over about how I could make holes in the plaster and get insulation in but when I actually started taking the walls apart and found it was half drywall anyway I didn't feel so guilty about opening the walls right up. These trade offs are hard to calculate. Other than cost savings the comfort level is another variable. when I bought my basement had cardboard boxes stapled to the walls int he basement and it was drafty. I insulated the worst walls and that made a huge impact as all that air coming in found its way up through the rest of the house. other things like redoing my front and back porch in fiberglass did lots to shed water away from the house and all this helped decrease the spider population. they love drafts and they love dampness.

Here I believe we can have the power company examine heat loss and they have programs to assist in insulating costs which help towards energy waste but I didn't opt for that because I don't' want them telling me what to do next if that makes any sense In order to benefit from grants you have to do whats requested and I didn't' really want them in my hair but maybe that's not the best approach. I save a lot of the costs by hunting for leftover materials so that offset the costs in other ways. It might differ by area but I often see leftovers in the materials section. people often order a little too much and don't' wan to store the leftovers and that's been a large part of my financial strategy but it also affects the order I do things in to some extent. You can often save half the cost this way.

often even if you are in the big box buying new stuff you may see damaged sheets of insulation or drywall and I find they are only too happy to discount it by as much as 50% because no one will buy a sheet with a missing corner or one someone stabbed with the forklift but often you can just trim out the damage. I reduced the costs of my living room reno by about 50% with a little hunting for deals and if I am going to buy new I so often find that just by checking the materials section Ill find what I need and its still the same one trip to pick it up and usually no tax.

Phil

[GibsonGM]

Ha ha, Holmes' blue wood is now pink! It's good stuff, tho!

Like Phil says - remediating that moisture issue is going to be the key to whether insulating is a good or bad thing. Sump pump might be the best thing. Sealing the floor will only go so far, but will help. There are other sealants, too, depending on where you live.

More dense pack "pushing", lol! Demo'ing walls, prepping, cleanup...then insulating PROPERLY with fiberglass (always a total pain)...can all be done with dense pack, with little disturbance to your walls, via 2" holes inside and/or outside. No months and months of working on it! It was the ONLY (and I mean only....) thing I have outsourced on my home. I've rewired the electrical, removed asbestos siding, glazed all the windows, resided a gable end, painted the whole thing, fixed chimney flashing, built in my entire 2nd floor, added a bathroom up here, installed a Jotul stove, sided my barn, fixed a leaking dormer/made copper flashing pan and new window....in 8 months. But insulation on that scale...I won't touch

Phil, you sound VERY resourceful!! I won't do grants (they have them in the US too) as I do not want them telling me what "must" be done, and I know that they don't always do what is good for the longevity of the HOUSE, but for meeting an energy requirement....the 2 CAN and DO conflict sometimes!
Ex: it is amazing how few ppl actually know that indoor moisture is dangerous....and living in a Zip Loc bag is not healthy! he he he

[JacquieJet]

Ack, I hate spiders. A good side-effect of lowering the moisture would be banishing those guys, I think!
Phil, you are so resourceful. Some good tips!! Thanks!!
I have never heard of these grants before, but I guess there are pros and cons there. I know a few years back a lot of my neighbours here changed out their original windows for new ones because of some sort of energy grant. Maybe it is something similar? I'm just glad I still have my wavy glass

[phil]

I agree about he windows. I'm keeping mine although replacements would cut the traffic noise down. I think if I just wait I'll find time to start making some storms. I see a lot of houses near me and some nicely fixed up ones where they still seem to loose the windows so they are definitely getting more rare.

If you have spider issues you might look into renting an ozone generator. Ozone is weird stuff, You smell it near a thunderstorm or anywhere there is a lot of sparking like near old motors. You can buy or make one or rent one. If you do you have to evacuate any living creatures you do want like the kitty and plants etc. You set the thing on a timer and it runs for its set time, then it shuts off. You come home and hold your breath and open some windows and go out to let it get out of the house. It doesn't stink. It actually clings to smells like smoke particles. I don't think its actually poisonous but sort of replaces oxygen with ozone so you won't want to breath it. I have heard the odor of it described as "the absence of smell" places that have high power like factories with big motors don't' usually have many spiders in those areas.

I tried in my house with a borrowed one and was impressed. The spiders all died and I think the eggs died. they came back but it was about 5 years ago and they seem less abundant now. If you have really high humidity it might help to look into that. Others may say the spiders don't' hurt anything but the webs can be messy. the ozone generator evidently does oxidize things so they say to keep it away from rubber parts like maybe the rubber seal on your fridge which is actually likely a plastic material and I don't' think it hurts synthetic rubber. I didn't notice any issues or damage.

there are plans to build one if you search google. also there are a lot of air purifiers that claim to have built in ozone generators but I think they produce very minimal amounts. The commercial machines create lots of ozone and need to be used according to the instructions. or you can hire guys to do it. you can likely buy one for around 300 if you prefer. or buy parts to build your own. I think you can steal the transformer from an old photocopier as they make high voltage and are likely suitable. older copiers always had that ozone smell. It is used in printing plants to eliminate static electricity which wreaks havoc on the process because the sheets tend to stick together. Those ones were usually always running so I don't think they put out huge amounts. I think it is often used for mold and around here you get houses that were grow ops and they tend to destroy houses by filling them wall to wall with plants and super high humidity. I had a friend that ad a sewer backup that was caused by the city and they immediately sent huge commercial ones in and evicted him for a few days until it was inhabitable.

I think newer copiers that scan and then copy use basically an ink jet printer but older ones use a piece of wire that is charged to a high voltage. These ones will likely contain a suitable transformer and are easy to find for free.

of course if you have mold issues and spiders the fix isn't to kill them the fix is to reduce humidity, but it will kill spiders quite well and sometimes you just want a fresh start to keep them, and mold spores with the accompanying mildew smell under control. I smoke so I am pretty immune to cigarette smell but sometimes people move into places where others smoked and it grosses them out so it helps in that circumstance.

we all have mold spores , they are in us and on our skin and any dirt has many kinds of it , it's not all bad but if you have a wet basement it might help to increase the ozone to a really high level as a temporary measure to treat the area.

Im not sure if little ones like the ones on the little air cleaners do anything or really help a lot or if they are beneficial to your health or if they are hurtful. i think if I had a wet basement I'd read up and maybe look to buying one pre made and do the treatment once a year or so. Its a good tool to share as you wont; need to use it very often.

Phil

[JacquieJet]

Thanks, Phil.
Unfortunately I don't have much free time on my hands to build something like that, but will look into a rental when the time is right. Luckily mould is (so far) not an issue, but it's good to keep in mind regardless. Once in a while we will spray spider killer down in the basement, and it does a good job but has a strange rose-like smell and I don't like the thought of breathing it in, so we don't do it often. Luckily, for the most part, the spiders seem to know that upstairs is my territory and to not try to invade! Heh heh.