How to prevent condensation without storm windows?
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Gothichome
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Re: How to prevent condensation without storm windows?
Our temporary storms are mounted externally like proper storms. I believe they are protecting the sashes and a good part of the exterior frame. The down side in my opinion is they lack the look of true period storm for the vintage of the home.
Re: How to prevent condensation without storm windows?
heartwood wrote:I don't like vinyl because of its environmental impacts...during manufacturer toxins are released...because it is not structurally sound on its own, heavy metals like lead and cadmium were incorporated for strength...people had their window replaced with their child's health in mind...studies were done and found that vinyl windows and blinds were making children sick with high lead counts....it cannot be recycled so it remains in landfills forever and a day...it breaks down and becomes brittle...every try to wash the exterior of a vinyl window? you get a milky white residue--yup, that's the vinyl breaking down...I truly believe that vinyl will be the next abated product--not unlike lead and asbestos abatement...it's very unhealthy...there's a video called 'blue vinyl'...great little educational independent film...
http://www.healthychild.org/search-results/?q=pvc
http://chej.org/polyvinyl-chloride-pvc/
...jade
Vinyl windows with exterior exposure and small amounts of vinyl used for framing an interior storm are kind of two different things. Heck, there is more toxic plastic in a car than in a set of these. We do also routinely use PVC in all manner of other things in home renovation: waste pipes and cabling to name but two. A bit of googling reveals that PVC is extremely recyclable, and new rules are forcing lead compounds out of being used as a stabilizer
Mick...
Re: How to prevent condensation without storm windows?
well mick....I think i'll leave it there--agree to disagree...indeed that 'new car smell' is not a healthy one..
....jade
....jade
Re: How to prevent condensation without storm windows?
If one does not want to spend a bunch of money, and has a bit of DIY ability, the best option by FAR is, in my humble opinion, to make interior storm panels that fit in your window casing and which have a gasket made of split backer rod. Search "interior storm panel" on Google.
As condensation is the result of warm, moist air hitting the cold surface of your panes of glass, the interior panel prevents most of this air from making it to your sashes at all. I used these last year and had 98% clear windows all winter. They will prevent your sashes from sustaining moisture damage. In my experience, traditional wooden storms will not do this, as either they or the sashes themselves will frost, and then the wood is exposed to the damp.
And as mentioned, your home needs to be kept kinda low in humidity in winter, when it is buttoned up. A couple of inexpensive hygrometers can help you see what's going on. FROST is "Ok", but WATER running down the panes is a sure sign of BAD occupant behavior, LOL...I shoot for <50 to 60% RH, and always easily hit this mark. Might go up when you boil water for spaghetti, but it'll quickly go down again. Dehumidifier(s) in combination with exhaust venting is key, esp. in bathrooms....
If you use a stove or fireplace, or have forced hot air, this will also keep your air MUCH drier than with forced hot water or LP/propane, which emits a LOT of moisture. If I had gas heat, I'd be all over the moisture level in my home...
As condensation is the result of warm, moist air hitting the cold surface of your panes of glass, the interior panel prevents most of this air from making it to your sashes at all. I used these last year and had 98% clear windows all winter. They will prevent your sashes from sustaining moisture damage. In my experience, traditional wooden storms will not do this, as either they or the sashes themselves will frost, and then the wood is exposed to the damp.
And as mentioned, your home needs to be kept kinda low in humidity in winter, when it is buttoned up. A couple of inexpensive hygrometers can help you see what's going on. FROST is "Ok", but WATER running down the panes is a sure sign of BAD occupant behavior, LOL...I shoot for <50 to 60% RH, and always easily hit this mark. Might go up when you boil water for spaghetti, but it'll quickly go down again. Dehumidifier(s) in combination with exhaust venting is key, esp. in bathrooms....
If you use a stove or fireplace, or have forced hot air, this will also keep your air MUCH drier than with forced hot water or LP/propane, which emits a LOT of moisture. If I had gas heat, I'd be all over the moisture level in my home...
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phil
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Re: How to prevent condensation without storm windows?
I agree about making your own. Just look for wood that's really appropriate and make sure it's not green. you don't want twist during drying. You can cut the mortices and tenons and the rebate for the glass on a tablesaw. You don't' need the fancy knives to do window profiles. If you don't' have a jointer you can square the lumber up on the saw but a jointer is also a good investment. a good saw that cuts square is worth it's weight. If the saw wont'; cut square or if the lumber is too green you might end up with a window with a twist in it.
If you look around there are many old saws on the market. I like delta unisaws and if you look you'll probably find one for a couple hundred. Contractor saws that you can pick up and take with you have their place but they are not as accurate but use what you can afford or have access to. The fence is important and if you find you have to fiddle with the fence to lock it dead square then you can replace the fence with a newer one. the Biesmeyer fences are my favorite and there are other brands that are similar. Good saws have heavy tables and heavy trunnions and are not portable , that's the difference between a cabinet saw and a contractor saw. If you buy a three phase one from a commercial setting you can run it on single phase, there are several approaches and the costs have come down on what's necessary to do that.
delta is going obsolete or to china so parts can be an issue but so far I haven't found parts I can't get. A lot of commercial shops are probably taking them out and replacing them with newer ones but these have been a favorite for so many years that they aren't going to go away completely. look for equipment auctions especially woodwork shops that are closing down, or institutions that replace it just because it's old. If you have room you can extend the tables. I'm crammed so mine has smaller tables than I'd like. I mounted the whole thing on a base with nylon pads so I can turn it to get a straight run for the path of the wood. You can make your own expendable crosscut sled to trim panels square or to cut ends of longer stock.
first just try with some cheap lumber and in the first one or two you might make some mistakes. watch some videos. After you get your process figured out you can go ahead and make them for all your windows. If you get creative and find the lumber from other old houses, doors etc you can get old growth wood for free so the cost is whatever you spend on glass and hardware. I often like to cut old stuff down and re-use it and that wood is very dimensionally stable if it was stored in a suitable place. The finer grain of old growth will match your other house parts well.
You can make them a little large and plan to trim them as a final step, that way you'll clean up the edges.
the best thing about this is it's an excuse to get some tools that you will love and use for so many other projects after you complete your windows.
If you look around there are many old saws on the market. I like delta unisaws and if you look you'll probably find one for a couple hundred. Contractor saws that you can pick up and take with you have their place but they are not as accurate but use what you can afford or have access to. The fence is important and if you find you have to fiddle with the fence to lock it dead square then you can replace the fence with a newer one. the Biesmeyer fences are my favorite and there are other brands that are similar. Good saws have heavy tables and heavy trunnions and are not portable , that's the difference between a cabinet saw and a contractor saw. If you buy a three phase one from a commercial setting you can run it on single phase, there are several approaches and the costs have come down on what's necessary to do that.
delta is going obsolete or to china so parts can be an issue but so far I haven't found parts I can't get. A lot of commercial shops are probably taking them out and replacing them with newer ones but these have been a favorite for so many years that they aren't going to go away completely. look for equipment auctions especially woodwork shops that are closing down, or institutions that replace it just because it's old. If you have room you can extend the tables. I'm crammed so mine has smaller tables than I'd like. I mounted the whole thing on a base with nylon pads so I can turn it to get a straight run for the path of the wood. You can make your own expendable crosscut sled to trim panels square or to cut ends of longer stock.
first just try with some cheap lumber and in the first one or two you might make some mistakes. watch some videos. After you get your process figured out you can go ahead and make them for all your windows. If you get creative and find the lumber from other old houses, doors etc you can get old growth wood for free so the cost is whatever you spend on glass and hardware. I often like to cut old stuff down and re-use it and that wood is very dimensionally stable if it was stored in a suitable place. The finer grain of old growth will match your other house parts well.
You can make them a little large and plan to trim them as a final step, that way you'll clean up the edges.
the best thing about this is it's an excuse to get some tools that you will love and use for so many other projects after you complete your windows.
Re: How to prevent condensation without storm windows?
For sure, Phil, if you want really, really nice storms, interior or not, you can use glass and the saw, or a router etc. and come up with some really nice stuff.
The ones I am talking about are easier - they don't use glass, they use storm window 'kit' plastic, double sided tape, etc. Last about 5 years, and are nice to look at if you are careful in construction. Do not require more than a decent saw to cut 90s, a screw gun, drill bit/driver, glue, screws and wood, plus backer rod and the window kits. The plastic allows you to flex them when you put them in place, where glass would crack. The fit is quite tight, nearly airtight. Great for DIY on a budget. Probably <$8 per unit. Some will think they're fine/nice, and others may want something more top shelf!
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=193
The ones I am talking about are easier - they don't use glass, they use storm window 'kit' plastic, double sided tape, etc. Last about 5 years, and are nice to look at if you are careful in construction. Do not require more than a decent saw to cut 90s, a screw gun, drill bit/driver, glue, screws and wood, plus backer rod and the window kits. The plastic allows you to flex them when you put them in place, where glass would crack. The fit is quite tight, nearly airtight. Great for DIY on a budget. Probably <$8 per unit. Some will think they're fine/nice, and others may want something more top shelf!
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=193
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phil
- Has many leather bound books
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Re: How to prevent condensation without storm windows?
how about using thin lucite or lexan or plexiglass? it kind of looks like wavy glass. probably won't last forever as it will scratch especially if you use anythign abrasive but with care they may last a while and look ok. Im considering using that and I'd like to find out more about the sound blocking characteristics of glass vs Plexiglass as it's the car noise Im more concerned about than heat.
Im thinking about doing interior storms that hinge in for windows that open outwards and for the doublehung ones I have heard of hinge kits that will allow them to tip out at the bottom. I am not sure if they also open a bit at the top when you tip the bottom out but a carpenter friend said he did that and said he could show me one of the hinges so I should follow up on his offer. Im thinking if they can be pushed out aat the bottom and also leave a gap at the top that would work well with the doublehung windows.
Im looking to keep mine in more permanently, not only in winter.
Im thinking about doing interior storms that hinge in for windows that open outwards and for the doublehung ones I have heard of hinge kits that will allow them to tip out at the bottom. I am not sure if they also open a bit at the top when you tip the bottom out but a carpenter friend said he did that and said he could show me one of the hinges so I should follow up on his offer. Im thinking if they can be pushed out aat the bottom and also leave a gap at the top that would work well with the doublehung windows.
Im looking to keep mine in more permanently, not only in winter.
Re: How to prevent condensation without storm windows?
I think that would work in your case, Phil. The only drawback I've seen with lexan is that is ALWAYS gets totally scratched, and can crack if you flex it. People have done it with good results tho, and if they're permanent then of course you can take your time and be sure the fitments are good before committing. Maybe rely just on the gasket, the lexan being part of a 'normal' hinged window as you described. Add a latch, you're good to go....
The ones I'm talking about are to save your sashes from moisture coming from inside...you have to flex them to install them. The flimsly plastic is great because it is easy to replace, and fixes with a piece of scotch tape. Small commitment of time, materials, blah blah blah. But they work well, and come out quickly in spring. Painted the color of your woodwork, they are nearly invisible, too.
The ones I'm talking about are to save your sashes from moisture coming from inside...you have to flex them to install them. The flimsly plastic is great because it is easy to replace, and fixes with a piece of scotch tape. Small commitment of time, materials, blah blah blah. But they work well, and come out quickly in spring. Painted the color of your woodwork, they are nearly invisible, too.