me again with electrical question

[Texas_Ranger]

I still use a lot of conventional light bulbs because I'm still not 100% convinced by LEDs, especially because not even different batches from the same reputable manufacturers give the same light but only in pendant fixtures. And only where they're likely to be turned off when not needed, all the hallways are LED because those lights tend to stay on for a long time.

Monetary savings from LEDs or compact fluorescents (*shudder*) are fairly limited, especially if you buy quality LEDs but I agree, they run a lot cooler and that can save old wiring. It's simply a matter of wattage. 60 or 100 W equal more heat than 10 or 15. At least LEDs usually last longer than CFLs but I've had one fail after only a year too. The LED above our front door (exterior) is still going strong after 1 1/2 years while none of the CFLs lasted more than half a year (on 24/7 because I haven't bothered to fix the dusk-to-dawn sensor and want to test the LED's longevity). You aren't exactly going to save the planet by switching to LEDs either because even before several countries banned incandescent bulbs household lighting only accounted for like 1.5% of the world's energy usage.

[GibsonGM]

For me it is just about how much power the light is drawing. P=E*I. (power in watts = voltage * current). So far, the light itself is fine, IMO...more yellow than the horrible CFLs, which I have totally rejected. It's not about environment or money savings for me, it is about impact on my house.....perhaps safety...

60W = 120V * X 60/120= .5 Amperes per 60W bulb. Two would draw 1 Ampere of current.

So, on a 15A circuit you could have 30 60W bulbs...theoretically, codes dictate fewer than that to keep a safety margin.

I don't want to pull anywhere near that from KT wiring (which I don't have - mine is new everywhere I can SEE, but you can never be sure there isn't some 1950 Romex in there)

If an LED bulb is drawing 15W of power, you would then get 15W = 15/120=.125A, or 125mA. 10 of them will draw 1.25A. Your wiring will have much, much less chance to become hot if there is an issue. If I had ANY KT of any sort, I would switch to them right off. But that's just me.

[phil]

I'd put them through a spark fault breaker. or an arc fault breaker . consult an electrician and ask which.

If the wiring's capability wont' exceed the capacity of the breaker , that's a dangerous situation and it should be fixed. Limiting what you plug in shouldn't come into play. Breakers are sized with appropriate wire size and are meant to blow when too mush power is drawn. You should never increase the size of a breaker unless you know the wiring in the walls is appropriate You could reduce the breaker size I suppose but it's more related to the wire size and the kind of outlets.

Aside from the nasty connections, the wire size is generally quite adequate and they used better copper then. You'll notice how soft it is if you compare. They used more pure copper.

on the power savings/ light bulb calculations
this is wildly inaccurate because people forget that any "wasted" energy is not wasted. it heats your house ! This isn't wasted energy at all. In summer , yes ok, In winter when you are heating, any light you burn no matter how efficient or inefficient reduces your heating consumption and the electricity. BTU's and KWH are directly related. it really doesn't matter if you heat with light bulbs or radiant heat or baseboard heaters. they are all the same efficiency.

... so the "green alternative" is a farce. .

[Texas_Ranger]

Arc fault circuit breakers (AFCIs) don't always work on knob and tube because they require separate neutrals for each circuit, like GFCIs and that wasn't necessarily done with K&T. A neutral borrowed from another circuit won't cause any trouble under normal conditions but as soon as AFCIs and GFI breakers get involved you get instant nuisance tripping.

[GibsonGM]

I'm in NO way suggesting that 'limiting what you plug in' is a solution for KT. The real solution is to replace it with Romex. I build custom tube amplifiers for people, so I have some background with this. I routinely put my hands into circuitry that operates at 500V and will kill you in a heartbeat, that may qualify me to talk about it, or may not, I dunno.

My calculation is correct, Phil...I personally don't care a bit about being green (tho I have a degree in environmental science, go figure, LOL! Yes, most of it is a farce, which is why I paint houses now)...I am solely concerned with current draw as it relates to stressing a system and possibly being a danger. Oh - and my electric bill! LED bulbs run cooler, much less current draw, and I pay <$75/mo in electric incl. my dehumidifier in the basement...would you heat your house with electric?? Not me! Living in rural maine, not an option. I use 98% wood.

The less current you draw thru a wire, the cooler it will be. In normal use with normal wiring, this is negligible up to the point where a breaker trips (as it has a safety margin built in). If your KT wiring has DEFECTS (and after 100 yrs, we all do, esp. our insulation), current draw may very well determine how hot it gets. Over-stressing the KT may cause a fire due to some defect that one cannot see...not due to wire gauge or anything like that All things being equal, it should NOT be unsafe, but this has been the case thru the years - something is wrong that you can't see, and there is a problem. Other home owners do things, move wires...let's not forget - you reach into the wall while repairing something, and there ya go - you grab the hot wire with no insulation (dried out, fallen off, mouse chewed...), and you die. Or somehow the accessible wire connects a drain pipe, ha ha...

KT is an outdated and obsolescent way to run power, that is right on the knife edge of dangerous...grounds are needed. I personally would rip out every last piece of it and update it. If not, I wouldn't sleep at night. That's up to the owner, just pointing this out. Keep it if you like To me, that's like saying you want to keep the roof tar someone put in a hole 100 years ago rather than reflash something...

$6 grand buys a LOT of peace of mind. Just my 2 cents, can't see the historical value of KT.

[Lily left the valley]

I learned a very expensive lesson in a rental 1901 worker's cottage in North Carolina, and I would never live in a home without a ground again.

We were not aware when we moved to that area that so long as no major systems were upgraded after a certain date, the homes were grandfathered from whatever code changes took place near/since that date. This included a home being ground.

One electrical storm later, and every single electronic that was plugged in within the home was toast (including both external backup drives). Melted plastic on a large scale is a terrible, awful smell. Our internet provider could not believe how bad the modem got fried.

Oh, and our renter's insurance refused to cover it because the home was not ground. We had thought it was ground because we had three prong outlets, and foolish me didn't think to 1) ask if the home had a ground because we'd never encountered such before; or 2) pull out my tester to make sure it was ground.

[JRC]

Lily, I believe your landlord was still at fault. Yes, it's legal to leave K&T wiring in place. But, it is not legal to replace 2-prong outlets with 3-prong outlets, without a ground, and without applying a little sticker that says "No equipment ground."

In my case, I still have K&T wiring. Mostly, because I don't have the money to have it replaced. But, when I had an electrician upgrade the service panel, he said he only recommends adding new circuits as needed. Maybe this is just his preference, as he also said he prefers to keep lighting on separate circuits from everything else.

[Texas_Ranger]

One electrical storm later, and every single electronic that was plugged in within the home was toast (including both external backup drives). Melted plastic on a large scale is a terrible, awful smell. Our internet provider could not believe how bad the modem got fried.

Oh, and our renter's insurance refused to cover it because the home was not ground. We had thought it was ground because we had three prong outlets, and foolish me didn't think to 1) ask if the home had a ground because we'd never encountered such before; or 2) pull out my tester to make sure it was ground.

That's bad but I'm fairly sure the breakdown wasn't due to the lack of earthing but would have happened anyway - lightning is incredibly powerful! I've seen pictures where cables were blown right out of plastered brick walls when lightning hit!

The only thing that helps is a whole-house surge arrestor, that's installed somewhere near your meter. I wouldn't want to live without one in a place with overhead electric lines! Underground cables are much safer because they're away from lightning.

[phil]

we had lightening hit a pole pig outside our country house. the pole pig is a transformer to reduce voltage to the house. there is a long run way up the mountain to supply it. there was a hill beside the pole pig and you;d think that the lightening would have hit the top of the hill instead. it instantly fried the TV. and the pole transformer. I dont' remember other damage though. I just remember the flash and it sounded like an explosion not thunder because I was so close.

It seems that a lot of older houses had lightening rods but I seldom see them. If you hook up an antenna then they normally use a lightening arrester. one could substitute an old spark plug, it incorporates a ground rod that's used to direct a lightening strike down to the ground rather than to the radio. with the spark plug it can give a connection to the antenna but the idea is that if your antenna gets hit by lightening and if you connect the electrode to a good ground the lightening thinks nothing of jumping the electrode gap. then it follows the path of least resistance to get to the ground rod.

In my house when I upgraded the electrical i put a mast through the roof at the corner of the house. to meet code I had to dig a hole and bury a ground plate near the service so I think if I had a strike it would take that path. others could check to see if they could add a ground rod if they don't have one. I don't think the original service did.

I keep meaning to put up a long wire antenna. I have an old telephone pole near my alley and it's not used for anything except it used to hold up the clothes line until my buddy backed into the pole and it pulled down the clothesline. I'm a bit nervous of climbing the pole with a ladder so keep putting it off. Sometimes I think I should cut down the pole in case it falls on someone but it's kind of a neat feature and I'd like to use it just for the antenna. I felt a bit safer when my friend stress tested the pole by backing into it pretty hard. I guess that's not too scientific. Maybe I could add some metal rods , like bedrails pounded into the ground around the pole to strengthen it. I assume if it did break it would break at ground level. It has a lot of creosote around it.
now and then I spot the hydro guys checking poles. i think they drill a hole down and take a sample or something. I wonder if there is some way to verify if it's still safe for my clothesline and antenna.

I have some old antenna kits from the 30's still in the box that have all the original parts. it has a flat piece of copper that you run through the window to prevent drilling holes. since most of our houses had antennas at one time it might be a neat feature to add. I found a suitable insulator and an antique wood stand off thing I could bolt to the pole to hold the insulator. I thought it would make a neat feature and I'd like a better antenna for my old radios.

I guess it's way off topic if I wasn't already but I found this little bit of info I thought was interesting. I found it interesting especially with new cell phone laws that prevent use while driving. I don't' know how it is in the US but we can get a big fine for using a cell and driving but not long ago it was common practice.

"Back in the early 1930s, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois and Ohio made it a fineable offense to operate a radio in a motor vehicle. In 1935, Connecticut legislators introduced a bill that would have made the installation of radio into a car subject to a $50 fine, but were not successful in passing it."

http://wshu.org/post/vintage-radio-going-mobile

[Lily left the valley]

JRC, the landlord did the, "Well everyone here knows" routine. Our lease was up soon after, and we opted to move instead of stay. He was a nice guy in other respects, but we did feel let down on that score. We had another odd thing happen there he did handle great, though no loss involved, but telling that tale would really be a derail, so I'll leave that one for another time.

Texas_Ranger, I don't doubt it. Those cottages all around the original plantation home were still much as they were first built. Most even had the water heaters on the covered side porch, some in a corner later enclosed that still wasn't insulated. It was the first time I bought a water heater blanket for a rental.

I prefer underground lines, but I've heard that some places don't do that for cost and/or frost depth reasons.

phil: Even if it is off topic, as always, I learned a lot from your post!