[quote="Sinoed"]Thanks for the suggestions. I checked into the U.S. websites and while the initial cost isn't too bad the shipping kills it. One small tub of Sarco is $39.95 + shipping to Canada of $60 usd. With an exchange rate of 1.35 this turns into $135 Can plus taxes of 13% and whatever import, duty and brokerage fees apply - which is pretty crazy. It's really too bad couldn't locate it while I was down there. It kind of makes sense if it's a small family business though.
Just received my bucket of Sarco from Kilian Hardware. $44 USD, $62 USD UPS shipping, and $43 CDN import duty, for a total cost to me of $188 CDN. Wow. I hope it's worth it.
Sarco alternatives
Re: Sarco alternatives
Greenwood wrote:
Just received my bucket of Sarco from Kilian Hardware. $44 USD, $62 USD UPS shipping, and $43 CDN import duty, for a total cost to me of $188 CDN. Wow. I hope it's worth it.
It's that wretched UPS. If they will ship via US Postal Service (USPS) the brokerage fees via Canada Post are much, much lower. Many companies only ship via UPS as it is convenient and will pick up shipments v.s. waiting in line at the post office. A bucket of putty may be too heavy for USPS, too ?
That said - I used that dang Dap on a couple of small windows, and despite having them inside, near a hot air register, the DAP is not fully cured after 4 weeks+. I painted one of them at about the 25 day mark - and the oil paint on top of the DAP sagged and wrinkled when the window was moved from being on a flat table surface where it was drying, to being vertical for installation. DAP is the putty of last resort.
(I was saving my Allback putty for the large front window, where I need to be sure the new putty will bond with the old linseed oil putty that remains stubbornly stuck.)
Any Canadians up for a mass distribution of Sarco ?
Re: Sarco alternatives
You'd think someone in the hardware industry would see the value in distributing this brand of putty in Canada (I had the same DAP experience as you - blubbing, drooping putty when I moved the sash). I'll start hassling my local hardware stores.
Something else I have been unable to find anywhere is the 'whiting'. I also ordered that from Kilian for $3.99USD.
Another issue I have is that I cannot find diamond glazing points that are ⅝" or less. The result is that for all my windows i had to use the Devil brand bracketed style push points, which are huge, and my putty line is also huge in order to cover them. I understand that you should not be able to see the putty line when looking out of your windows from the inside, so I've failed in that regard. I've already accepted that I will be reglazing my windows in a couple of years because of the stupid DAP.
Regarding the costs overall - despite huge shipping fees and the exchange rate, I am still saving myself thousands of dollars by not replacing my windows altogether. At least there's that! Instead, I've given weeks of my time.
Oh, and I ordered the putty from Kilian on a Thursday and the package arrived the next Tuesday. I'm pretty sure regular post would have taken close to two weeks.
Something else I have been unable to find anywhere is the 'whiting'. I also ordered that from Kilian for $3.99USD.
Another issue I have is that I cannot find diamond glazing points that are ⅝" or less. The result is that for all my windows i had to use the Devil brand bracketed style push points, which are huge, and my putty line is also huge in order to cover them. I understand that you should not be able to see the putty line when looking out of your windows from the inside, so I've failed in that regard. I've already accepted that I will be reglazing my windows in a couple of years because of the stupid DAP.
Regarding the costs overall - despite huge shipping fees and the exchange rate, I am still saving myself thousands of dollars by not replacing my windows altogether. At least there's that! Instead, I've given weeks of my time.
Oh, and I ordered the putty from Kilian on a Thursday and the package arrived the next Tuesday. I'm pretty sure regular post would have taken close to two weeks.
Re: Sarco alternatives
Greenwood wrote:Something else I have been unable to find anywhere is the 'whiting'. I also ordered that from Kilian for $3.99USD.
Another issue I have is that I cannot find diamond glazing points that are ⅝" or less.
I haven't searched for this - so take my advice with a grain of salt but whiting = calcium carbonate. Stained glass makers use it, as well as some type of putty. If there is a local stained glass studio/restoration place try asking them ? Drug stores sell calcium carbonate (ie calcium supplements). They may be able to order it for you in powdered v.s. pill form ?
I bought glazier's points that are smaller than 5/8" from Home Hardware. Do you have Home Hardware in Sask. ? The online listing doesn't state the size, but the point goes in the wood and the small tooth bracket goes against the glass. The tooth part is less about 7mm/ 1/4".
https://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Hardware/Builders/Windows/Glazir-Points/50-Pack-Steel-Glazier-Points/_/N-ntjst/R-I1645624?Num=0
Re: Sarco alternatives
Also - I fully intend to write to DAP with my complaints about their product. I encourage others to do the same !
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phil
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Re: Sarco alternatives
Willa wrote:Also - I fully intend to write to DAP with my complaints about their product. I encourage others to do the same !
maybe they will send you some Sarco
I just ordered some machine parts sent by UPS from the US.
they held the parts hostage and wanted to send some legal document, a power of attorney form. Problem is I never got it. Oh but the people at the phones cant; send or receive email. I guess they can;t be trusted to use email. so I asked for the supervisor,, I still hadn't received it after about 4 hours but even the supervisors didn't have access to email. of course when you can't receive an email form someone you can normally send them one to verify they have the address right and they can reply.. but not having access to email they couldn't do that.. even the supervisors cant' !
to add insult to injury their automated computers are phoning me asking for all sorts of tracking numbers and whatnot which they already have and leaving computer generated voicemails in my inbox, like that helps.
finally after 4 hours of frustration and even yelling at them credit card in hand ready to pay any charges they wanted they still were not able to send the silly POA form they needed and they refused to involve the driver.. meanwhile the machines are down and they are holding the parts hostage.. at that point I just gave up and had our purchasing department handle it. Who knows how long they spent at it .. eventually they got it resolved but they are experts.. what a royal PITA...
you could call around to a few glass shops, surely they must have a supply? or beg the shipper in the US to send it USPS? I could not wrap my head around how UPS stays in business, I cost at least 2 hours of on the phone time for their employees and still they refused to let go of my package. How can they make money doing that?
Sometimes what I do with the machine shops is get a vendor on this side of the line order stuff, then they can deal with the hassle albeit with some markup. I'm pretty much in the habit now of saying sorry I can't accept deliveries by UPS and sometimes I can find another seller who can send it some other way. US vendors use them to ship within the US often so they have accounts and things but have no idea of the hassles they create by attempting a cross border shipment with them.
Phil
Re: Sarco alternatives
greenwood....if you send me a PM with your address, I can send you a bunch of 3/8" points...they come in 'sticks' that are used in my framemaster point shooter but I can 'shoot' a bunch of them into a little plastic bag and mail them to you...how many do you need? 100? I have plenty of whiting (calcium carbonate) that i'd be happy to send...I wonder if it would opened by the post office and held as a 'white powdery substance'??? are you using it to clean glass? check out a local art or stained glass store, they may have it locally...
willa, good for you for intending to contact DAP...unfortunately, there are tens of thousands of home owners and glass shop owners who use it...forgive them for they know not what they do....
....jade
willa, good for you for intending to contact DAP...unfortunately, there are tens of thousands of home owners and glass shop owners who use it...forgive them for they know not what they do....
....jade
Re: Sarco alternatives
heartwood wrote:willa, good for you for intending to contact DAP...unfortunately, there are tens of thousands of home owners and glass shop owners who use it...forgive them for they know not what they do....
....jade
The price point and availability of DAP is good (as in they are the only available product in Canada it seems). The consistency is workable. But the curing time is utterly unacceptable. Why haven't they improved their product to perform better ? This bad product has helped many a decent wood framed window to be discarded.
The bad performance of the DAP just makes me mad ! Like 28 days at 70F in normal humidity should be fully skinned over and firm to hard to touch. Maybe DAP doesn't know any better - no one ever told them ?
Re: Sarco alternatives
I really appreciate the discussion above. And thanks Jade for offering to send me what you use professionally. Much appreciated.
Having said that, I am officially done with glazing, so too late for smaller points. I completed 16 - 20 x 24 sashes and a door insert that has 9 - 5 ¾ x 12 lites. I ended up using three types of putty - Allback, Dap, and Sarco. It was my first ever go at glazing and that is plainly obviously in my crappy glazing job.
Allback was sticky, difficult to use, and expensive. I tried adding calcium carbonate but could not get a texture that was easy to use. As soon as it hit the heat in my hand, it was sticky again. I could not correct mistakes and would have to re-do the whole line if I made one. It can only be painted immediately with linseed paint, so no benefit (to me) to using it since I am not also using linseed paint. I appreciate that there is a preservationist and ecological benefit to using linseed putty, but in the scheme of things for me, those two points carried less weight than getting my windows done with moderate effort in a reasonable amount of time at reasonable cost.
Dap was stiff and required muscle power to 'press the line' (I don't know how else to describe that movement of creating the glazing line). I found pressing consistently hard over the 24 inches almost impossible. Mistakes could be reasonably smoothed over with fingertips, but the putty blubbed and sagged as it dried.
Sarco is by far a superior putty. Perfect consistency right out of the bucket, easy to press the line, and easy to correct mistakes. It is fast to use and I completed two sashes and all 9 smaller lites in about the time it would have taken me to fuss with one sash using Allback. I'll have to wait and see how long the Sarco takes to skin over and of course there is the test of time.
The instructions say to not prime it, so since I have to prime the sash otherwise, it's a bit of a pain to only prime the sash and not the putty. But, whatev. The ease of use makes up for that.
Jade, I was also surprised when my whiting arrived through customs without a sign that it was opened and inspected. It's a little concerning, actually, since it quite easily looks like drugs.
But in my city of 250,000 people, I could not find this product and we do not have any stained-glass stores. We must not be artistically inclined here! I did find calcium carbonate at a sports store, as it's something climbers use to control damp palms. I find that funny, because I live on the prairies. There is nothing to climb here. Anyway, I used that, but it is grainy and I had to sift it, and even with sifting it was still grainy. Since I was ordering Sarco from Killian anyway, I asked for a box of the whiting too. It is a much finer powder, but probably exactly the same content - calcium carbonate.
I used the whiting because John Leeke's book recommended it. He says it helps the putty dry and it cleans the glass. Maybe it's unnecessary? What do you use it for?
This forum is awesome and I sure appreciate everyone who takes the time to read posts and offer comments.
Having said that, I am officially done with glazing, so too late for smaller points. I completed 16 - 20 x 24 sashes and a door insert that has 9 - 5 ¾ x 12 lites. I ended up using three types of putty - Allback, Dap, and Sarco. It was my first ever go at glazing and that is plainly obviously in my crappy glazing job.
Allback was sticky, difficult to use, and expensive. I tried adding calcium carbonate but could not get a texture that was easy to use. As soon as it hit the heat in my hand, it was sticky again. I could not correct mistakes and would have to re-do the whole line if I made one. It can only be painted immediately with linseed paint, so no benefit (to me) to using it since I am not also using linseed paint. I appreciate that there is a preservationist and ecological benefit to using linseed putty, but in the scheme of things for me, those two points carried less weight than getting my windows done with moderate effort in a reasonable amount of time at reasonable cost.
Dap was stiff and required muscle power to 'press the line' (I don't know how else to describe that movement of creating the glazing line). I found pressing consistently hard over the 24 inches almost impossible. Mistakes could be reasonably smoothed over with fingertips, but the putty blubbed and sagged as it dried.
Sarco is by far a superior putty. Perfect consistency right out of the bucket, easy to press the line, and easy to correct mistakes. It is fast to use and I completed two sashes and all 9 smaller lites in about the time it would have taken me to fuss with one sash using Allback. I'll have to wait and see how long the Sarco takes to skin over and of course there is the test of time.
The instructions say to not prime it, so since I have to prime the sash otherwise, it's a bit of a pain to only prime the sash and not the putty. But, whatev. The ease of use makes up for that.
Jade, I was also surprised when my whiting arrived through customs without a sign that it was opened and inspected. It's a little concerning, actually, since it quite easily looks like drugs.
But in my city of 250,000 people, I could not find this product and we do not have any stained-glass stores. We must not be artistically inclined here! I did find calcium carbonate at a sports store, as it's something climbers use to control damp palms. I find that funny, because I live on the prairies. There is nothing to climb here. Anyway, I used that, but it is grainy and I had to sift it, and even with sifting it was still grainy. Since I was ordering Sarco from Killian anyway, I asked for a box of the whiting too. It is a much finer powder, but probably exactly the same content - calcium carbonate.
I used the whiting because John Leeke's book recommended it. He says it helps the putty dry and it cleans the glass. Maybe it's unnecessary? What do you use it for?
This forum is awesome and I sure appreciate everyone who takes the time to read posts and offer comments.
Re: Sarco alternatives
greenwood...good for you for trying different putty products...I've used many over the past 20 plus years...I like sarco type m the best...depending on the volume of putty, I allow at least 5 days for drying time...if, when you gently smooth your finger over the surface, the putty feels a bit gritty, it's ready for paint...we prime then lightly sand the sash prior to setting the glass...I know window restorers who do prime over the putty, I never have....I've spoken with the owner of sarco putty and he suggested that after 3 weeks or more, you can prime over the putty but there is a chance that the solvents in the primer may migrate through the putty causing wrinkling...
some folks use whiting on a soft brush to absorb the oil from the glass (you know, that big mess on the glass left behind after tooling the putty)...the whiting also adheres to the putty and it sets up a bit faster...I used to use this method but I don't anymore...I find using a new single edge razor along the perimeter of the glass and washing with denatured alcohol works well...I think it's important that the putty is a the right balance of calcium carbonate (whiting, chalk) and boiled linseed oil...adding the whiting changes the balance...to clean the glass with DNA, we dispense it in a spray bottle onto a paper towel folded into a square so as to have more control around the edges...if you spray the DNA directly onto the glass, the overspray will wrinkle the putty...
after the putty has set up, I use my bahco triangle scraper (my favorite little tool!) and gently scrape the wood around the perimeter of the glass to remove excess putty then sand those areas...you can vac or brush off the discarded bits...
you can then apply water based (latex, acrylic) or oil based (alkyd) directly over the putty...it's important to paint over the wood and putty and onto the glass to form a seal...when tooling the putty, I make sure to hold back the putty from the interior site line about 1/16"--1/8" to allow for the exterior paint seal...it's a task that takes practice, practice, practice...make sure to paint onto the glass on the interior as well so that any condensation will roll off rather than settle between the glass and wood...
and there you have it.........
....jade
some folks use whiting on a soft brush to absorb the oil from the glass (you know, that big mess on the glass left behind after tooling the putty)...the whiting also adheres to the putty and it sets up a bit faster...I used to use this method but I don't anymore...I find using a new single edge razor along the perimeter of the glass and washing with denatured alcohol works well...I think it's important that the putty is a the right balance of calcium carbonate (whiting, chalk) and boiled linseed oil...adding the whiting changes the balance...to clean the glass with DNA, we dispense it in a spray bottle onto a paper towel folded into a square so as to have more control around the edges...if you spray the DNA directly onto the glass, the overspray will wrinkle the putty...
after the putty has set up, I use my bahco triangle scraper (my favorite little tool!) and gently scrape the wood around the perimeter of the glass to remove excess putty then sand those areas...you can vac or brush off the discarded bits...
you can then apply water based (latex, acrylic) or oil based (alkyd) directly over the putty...it's important to paint over the wood and putty and onto the glass to form a seal...when tooling the putty, I make sure to hold back the putty from the interior site line about 1/16"--1/8" to allow for the exterior paint seal...it's a task that takes practice, practice, practice...make sure to paint onto the glass on the interior as well so that any condensation will roll off rather than settle between the glass and wood...
and there you have it.........
....jade