Restoring a lower sash that has a little water stain/damage. I guess the question is: at what point do you repair with LiquidWood/Epox or just leave it alone and oil paint?
The wood doesn’t feel particularly soft, just in a few places. It has water stains from how it sat for years holding in a window AC unit (previous owners). I was thinking about a little liquid wood and wood epox to seal the grain and fill any gaps before I glaze and paint. It has NOT been exposed to BLO/turp yet, so should be compatible.
Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
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vtattebury
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Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
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Gothichome
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Re: Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
I I generally only use the filler if the frame is structurally sound and not dependent on the filler providing structure. As far as a filler I use it for hole filling and minor end grain repair. Stay away from using the filler in large voids
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phil
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Re: Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
I couldn't view the pics of the windows.
I use it for some things but agree that wood replacement is best, most professional repair, in most cases.
you can build it up if you like but how well it's stuck is important. epoxy is not porous so water can get trapped between the wood and the epoxy. it also wont grow and shrink like wood does. slathering it all over just makes a mess.
I just fixed up a neat table , it is Duncan Phyphe and has these swooping legs. the joinery there was quite complex and it had sort of multiple layers of mortice and tennon and also wiggle nails. everything was so angular clamping was difficult. further to that it had previous repairs, wood screws added that were buried in there. It was previously glued but the pieces didn't fit tight. the only way I could have disassembled it would be with a saw and to cut major structural sections out. It wasn't worth that.
I used epoxy for that, since it can bridge a gap and it couldn't be disassembled easily. I also added some brass brackets which I made up. they are visible but if it saved the table then it's ok. they look like they could have been there because it has other brass parts. I buried the screw heads in there and added another. mixed up epoxy and covered the screws right in there. added my brass plates with countersunk brass screws for extra strength to the problem area.
I use epoxy as the glue and I add wood dust to that to make a filler.
usually with an antique like that it is best to use traditional hide glue as it can be steamed apart. with this table I didn't see it as being priceless, its from about the 40's I think.
what's neat about the table is it has a dropping mechanism that is quite interesting
so it can change height from a coffee table to a dining table very easily, it also has drop leaves. i see variations occasionally from the same maker, Ive also seen it on I Love Lucy, in her living room. We've had it in the family a long time so I spent a weekend fixing up the structure and sprucing it up.
I think it's ok for say if you have a plank that you want to use with a knot hole, then you can insert screws and bury them in there to prevent it ever falling out or you can drill holes in stuff so it bites in. Its possible to use a vacuum bag and an suction pump to penetrate rotten wood but I do agree with the previous post , it isnt' the cure for everything. That might be ok for a carved cornice that has almost turned to dust with dry rot. It'll be like petrified wood if you can get it into he wood using a vacuum bag. they do that for example if they raise a old part of a ship and it will turn to dust if they let it. The epoxy can be made to penetrate the part and then it can be observed, like in a museum or similar.
it wont absorb finishes like wood, it can lead to a mess if you over use it. I'd use it if I had a gap that cant' be closed up or maybe things that I dont really care about being original and just want a quick fix. its often not hard to fit a piece in there and replace rotten wood with wood. sometimes miter joints can open up due to shrinkage. the angle where the parts meet changes. sure you may be able to recut the joint and refit it, but sometimes that isn't' practical.
if I use it to fill a big void I will sometimes use a combination , cut a hunk of wood to fit as close as you can and use the epoxy to bridge the gap if you cant' do tight enough joinery to use wood glue. there are cases where shrinkage cracking and things can prevent a thing from being pulled tight with clamps for those situations I'd use epoxy sometimes.
other times you can simply cut thin wood wedges to fit your gap and then use wood glue instead. wood glue wont bridge gaps with any strength at all. for screw holes I usually just make a bunch of pointy wood splinters and dip them in wood glue and hammer them in. for long cracks I just cut a thin wedge maybe an inch and 1/16 or 1/8 on the bog side tapering to nothing , then wet them with glue and drive them in. then you have a wood repair. somethign like a window you may be able to hack off an inch and replace the bad part with wood. that's more professional isn't it?
if I fill a gap with epoxy I'd try to work it in get the epoxy mixed, get it in there and wiggle it to get it to distribute, then pull the parts up with clamps if I can. . then if there is still some gap I mix wood dust in then continue with that to fill the void. I dont want wood dust to interfere with the fit or prevent parts from pulling tight. the stuff I use takes time to harden. it goes plasticky in about 4 hours takes at least a day to dry several days to cure. there are faster setting epoxies, but it gives me working time. you can add dyes to epoxy but dont mix in stain or other oil based products. I like to just grab a bit of dust from under my tablesaw and use that. I f I want I screen the dust, or I can leave splinters in there for more strength, I can cut scraps to make darker of lighter wood dust. it looks quite like wood but it's really more like plastic.
Its not the right thing for most of your valuable possessions but I think it has it's place in restoration if it isn't overused. It is waterproof but you need to realize that wood expansion will still take place and coating stuff with, basically plastic can trap water , maybe make things worse if not planned well. Nothing sticks to dirt of course. If I cut off an inch and added a new piece I'd use it as the glue but in that case I'd fit the parts so they are tight. some like other waterproof glues. I just use carpenters glue ( white glue) for most indoor stuff.
I fyou have a tablesaw you can probably remove the window, slice off an inch then cut a stick the right dimension. drill 3 or so holes to inset screws from the bottom edge of your stick then wehn you clamp it up you cna insert the screws and tighten them up and bury them in there with epoxy.
pay attention to the angle of your sill and the bottom of the window. the sill probably has about a 4 degree slope and the window matches so that when you close the window it fits tight to the sill. It may not be square in other words. Id use coated screws or brass screws as iron may turn the wood black. If you dip the screw in epoxy and drive them in never to be undone then that will help hold the strip tight to the old parts. you could use dowels instead , some would say the repair sholdnt' contain metal or that the glue joint should stand up if it fit right. windows do see a lot of moisture and temp changes so treat them more as outdoor parts.
Id trim the length so it was spot on leave the thickness a tad oversize, then when you have it glued up you can use a scraper to make it perfectly even. that's because it may shift around a teeny bit during screwing or clamping and if the flat parts line up exactly it will help hide it. plane your parts so they actually fit tightly so the joint is strong. Id leave the screws buried right in there never to be seen but you can argue that different ways. if you dont want to use screws then you can fit your parts, drill some dowel holes right through your repair piece and use wood instead then the metal wont stain the wood if it does rust in there. you could get fancy and cut a mortice or other joinery. Id just use coated deck screws and so be it . then at the edges you'll see the joinery is a bit different than original but so be it. If you want perfect you can reproductive the whole thing to original spec, but that's a bit more involved. the way I see it happening the stiles run down to the bottom, thats what you see and if you hack off an inch and replace that then the bottom 1" will be a continuous rail, if it's painted is that a big deal? = or maybe something a blind man on a galloping horse wouldn't notice
if your tablesaw is just little then you can't cut that far from the fence so you can use a circular saw with a guide instead and improvise. If you do try to cut it on a tablesaw, since it is oblong it can kick back so use a sled and not the fence, that's safer. Its not wise to cut oblong things with the short side to the fence as it can pick up, twist slightly and kick the whole thing right at you.
you can do it on a contractor type saw because then the fence isn't in use.
I won't go into making a sled, but if you want to do that you can just google "tablesaw sled. " or just use a circular saw and then a hand plane to flatten it out.
I use it for some things but agree that wood replacement is best, most professional repair, in most cases.
you can build it up if you like but how well it's stuck is important. epoxy is not porous so water can get trapped between the wood and the epoxy. it also wont grow and shrink like wood does. slathering it all over just makes a mess.
I just fixed up a neat table , it is Duncan Phyphe and has these swooping legs. the joinery there was quite complex and it had sort of multiple layers of mortice and tennon and also wiggle nails. everything was so angular clamping was difficult. further to that it had previous repairs, wood screws added that were buried in there. It was previously glued but the pieces didn't fit tight. the only way I could have disassembled it would be with a saw and to cut major structural sections out. It wasn't worth that.
I used epoxy for that, since it can bridge a gap and it couldn't be disassembled easily. I also added some brass brackets which I made up. they are visible but if it saved the table then it's ok. they look like they could have been there because it has other brass parts. I buried the screw heads in there and added another. mixed up epoxy and covered the screws right in there. added my brass plates with countersunk brass screws for extra strength to the problem area.
I use epoxy as the glue and I add wood dust to that to make a filler.
usually with an antique like that it is best to use traditional hide glue as it can be steamed apart. with this table I didn't see it as being priceless, its from about the 40's I think.
what's neat about the table is it has a dropping mechanism that is quite interesting
so it can change height from a coffee table to a dining table very easily, it also has drop leaves. i see variations occasionally from the same maker, Ive also seen it on I Love Lucy, in her living room. We've had it in the family a long time so I spent a weekend fixing up the structure and sprucing it up.
I think it's ok for say if you have a plank that you want to use with a knot hole, then you can insert screws and bury them in there to prevent it ever falling out or you can drill holes in stuff so it bites in. Its possible to use a vacuum bag and an suction pump to penetrate rotten wood but I do agree with the previous post , it isnt' the cure for everything. That might be ok for a carved cornice that has almost turned to dust with dry rot. It'll be like petrified wood if you can get it into he wood using a vacuum bag. they do that for example if they raise a old part of a ship and it will turn to dust if they let it. The epoxy can be made to penetrate the part and then it can be observed, like in a museum or similar.
it wont absorb finishes like wood, it can lead to a mess if you over use it. I'd use it if I had a gap that cant' be closed up or maybe things that I dont really care about being original and just want a quick fix. its often not hard to fit a piece in there and replace rotten wood with wood. sometimes miter joints can open up due to shrinkage. the angle where the parts meet changes. sure you may be able to recut the joint and refit it, but sometimes that isn't' practical.
if I use it to fill a big void I will sometimes use a combination , cut a hunk of wood to fit as close as you can and use the epoxy to bridge the gap if you cant' do tight enough joinery to use wood glue. there are cases where shrinkage cracking and things can prevent a thing from being pulled tight with clamps for those situations I'd use epoxy sometimes.
other times you can simply cut thin wood wedges to fit your gap and then use wood glue instead. wood glue wont bridge gaps with any strength at all. for screw holes I usually just make a bunch of pointy wood splinters and dip them in wood glue and hammer them in. for long cracks I just cut a thin wedge maybe an inch and 1/16 or 1/8 on the bog side tapering to nothing , then wet them with glue and drive them in. then you have a wood repair. somethign like a window you may be able to hack off an inch and replace the bad part with wood. that's more professional isn't it?
if I fill a gap with epoxy I'd try to work it in get the epoxy mixed, get it in there and wiggle it to get it to distribute, then pull the parts up with clamps if I can. . then if there is still some gap I mix wood dust in then continue with that to fill the void. I dont want wood dust to interfere with the fit or prevent parts from pulling tight. the stuff I use takes time to harden. it goes plasticky in about 4 hours takes at least a day to dry several days to cure. there are faster setting epoxies, but it gives me working time. you can add dyes to epoxy but dont mix in stain or other oil based products. I like to just grab a bit of dust from under my tablesaw and use that. I f I want I screen the dust, or I can leave splinters in there for more strength, I can cut scraps to make darker of lighter wood dust. it looks quite like wood but it's really more like plastic.
Its not the right thing for most of your valuable possessions but I think it has it's place in restoration if it isn't overused. It is waterproof but you need to realize that wood expansion will still take place and coating stuff with, basically plastic can trap water , maybe make things worse if not planned well. Nothing sticks to dirt of course. If I cut off an inch and added a new piece I'd use it as the glue but in that case I'd fit the parts so they are tight. some like other waterproof glues. I just use carpenters glue ( white glue) for most indoor stuff.
I fyou have a tablesaw you can probably remove the window, slice off an inch then cut a stick the right dimension. drill 3 or so holes to inset screws from the bottom edge of your stick then wehn you clamp it up you cna insert the screws and tighten them up and bury them in there with epoxy.
pay attention to the angle of your sill and the bottom of the window. the sill probably has about a 4 degree slope and the window matches so that when you close the window it fits tight to the sill. It may not be square in other words. Id use coated screws or brass screws as iron may turn the wood black. If you dip the screw in epoxy and drive them in never to be undone then that will help hold the strip tight to the old parts. you could use dowels instead , some would say the repair sholdnt' contain metal or that the glue joint should stand up if it fit right. windows do see a lot of moisture and temp changes so treat them more as outdoor parts.
Id trim the length so it was spot on leave the thickness a tad oversize, then when you have it glued up you can use a scraper to make it perfectly even. that's because it may shift around a teeny bit during screwing or clamping and if the flat parts line up exactly it will help hide it. plane your parts so they actually fit tightly so the joint is strong. Id leave the screws buried right in there never to be seen but you can argue that different ways. if you dont want to use screws then you can fit your parts, drill some dowel holes right through your repair piece and use wood instead then the metal wont stain the wood if it does rust in there. you could get fancy and cut a mortice or other joinery. Id just use coated deck screws and so be it . then at the edges you'll see the joinery is a bit different than original but so be it. If you want perfect you can reproductive the whole thing to original spec, but that's a bit more involved. the way I see it happening the stiles run down to the bottom, thats what you see and if you hack off an inch and replace that then the bottom 1" will be a continuous rail, if it's painted is that a big deal? = or maybe something a blind man on a galloping horse wouldn't notice
if your tablesaw is just little then you can't cut that far from the fence so you can use a circular saw with a guide instead and improvise. If you do try to cut it on a tablesaw, since it is oblong it can kick back so use a sled and not the fence, that's safer. Its not wise to cut oblong things with the short side to the fence as it can pick up, twist slightly and kick the whole thing right at you.
you can do it on a contractor type saw because then the fence isn't in use.
I won't go into making a sled, but if you want to do that you can just google "tablesaw sled. " or just use a circular saw and then a hand plane to flatten it out.
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vtattebury
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Re: Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
Thanks for all the information. Sorry you can’t see the photos, Phil. This sash is actually in pretty good shape, so it doesn’t need any real wood replacement or repair, I just wanted to make sure I was taking proper care of it before I glazed it and threw it back in there. The AC unit is gone, so the “source” of the water is taken care of.
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phil
- Has many leather bound books
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- Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:11 pm
- Location: Near Vancouver BC
Re: Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
right, and window AC units usually expel water near the sill, not above so you know the issue and it isn't getting worse.
I just use the stuff I have because I have gallons of it, you might just try 5 minute epoxy. maybe make a little dam out of plastic.
epoxy does not stick to plastic, at least not shiny plastic or plastic bags, so you can tape that on maybe with a bit of cardboard as a form. roughen up the wood so it sticks or drill some little holes for bite. keep the repair area small as possible. I'd mask off where you dont want it to be than its' easier to control. you can use a clamp and stick a piece of lexan or wahtever you have in there as a form, then it comes out flat to the wood and shiny and smooth. saves finishing it much.
the polyester fiberglass resin comes in waxed or unwaxed. if it's waxed, the wax I guess raises to the top and leaves a sort of a coating so it isnt' sticky. If it's in between layers they use unwaxed. If you use the wax and then do more you need to sand it. I dont think epoxy comes waxed but could be wrong.
some here buy special fillers made for that but Its just epoxy with a filler, that might be wood dust , clay, nut shells coffee , whatever, even a rag will work. as long as it's something fiberous, itll become part of the mix.
If you look in finishing supply places you can get those sticks , you kneed it and it becomes active. there is one called PC woody that comes in like 2 film cans ( remember film cans? ) it comes wood color or white. its fairly thick stuff.
I dont use that because I dont think it bonds into the wood as well as a liquid can and I like to wet it first, then I might add epoxy mix with dust. I think the dust isnt' helping the bond it's just in there. I'm sure there are other ideas and there are lots of products. Ive bought little bottles of A and b from the hardware store. or the dual syringe things are handy too.
mine was outdated stuff from some cement floor finishing place but it works ok so I use it for lots of things. it was free.
the epoxy has great bonding strength , that's what it does. alone it has some strength but not a lot , it might be a bit a bit brittle when fully cured, if cold, .. but if you combine fibers , like fiberglass or other stuff then it's stronger.,, like autobody filler mixed with fiberglass. the strength is really in the glass itself.
traditional "bondo",where you add a 2 inch strip of hardener to a golf ball size of it, That's more like what they use to make fiberglass boats. - polyester resin not epoxy. Its stiffer and less bonding strength. It'll work similar in a pinch but I'd favor epoxy. Most epoxys are like 1:1 or 1:3 or similar. after that you go into trade names and proprietary products.
If you have a fiberglass shop that caters to decks or boats then they will have all the products and advice you could want. all products have MSDS sheets so sometimes you can gather a little about the "secret" contents from that. If you buy it by the gallon the epoxy is about 3x the price of polyester resin. for a boat or a deck that get expensive which is another reason they dont use epoxy. but to repair a fiberglass boat then you use epoxy for the bond strength.
on a boat they spray gelcoat in the mold , then apply the fiberglass with a chopping gun and it also sprays the resin on. the waterproofing is in the gelcoat not the fiberglass itself. for a deck you do it the other way and apply the gelcoat after, but before it cures, then it knits chemically and never peels. but you can sand and paint instead and that's ok .
sometimes I want it to be less runny so then I just wait a bit and use it in that state. then its like a putty and not a liquid. the 5 minute stuff has less working time but hardens up faster. some you'll find as a product more like plasticene.
a really good source of info is the "wooden boat forum" those guys use it all the time and water is common around boats some suffer from too much exposure, so if you sand use a mask if you use lots on other projects protect yourself or you will become more sensitive to it. it off- gasses a little but for a little repair it's not too bad. the hardeners Id stay away from as much as you can. dont get the stuff in your eyes. doing boats is a lot more intense.
of course like most things, you can go buy a tiny pouch for 10 bucks or more for less, when you get into gallons or drums the price drops a lot.
I went looking for 18 3/4 inch brass screws on the weekend, did you know they come in bubble packs of 4 screws? what a racket !
I just use the stuff I have because I have gallons of it, you might just try 5 minute epoxy. maybe make a little dam out of plastic.
epoxy does not stick to plastic, at least not shiny plastic or plastic bags, so you can tape that on maybe with a bit of cardboard as a form. roughen up the wood so it sticks or drill some little holes for bite. keep the repair area small as possible. I'd mask off where you dont want it to be than its' easier to control. you can use a clamp and stick a piece of lexan or wahtever you have in there as a form, then it comes out flat to the wood and shiny and smooth. saves finishing it much.
the polyester fiberglass resin comes in waxed or unwaxed. if it's waxed, the wax I guess raises to the top and leaves a sort of a coating so it isnt' sticky. If it's in between layers they use unwaxed. If you use the wax and then do more you need to sand it. I dont think epoxy comes waxed but could be wrong.
some here buy special fillers made for that but Its just epoxy with a filler, that might be wood dust , clay, nut shells coffee , whatever, even a rag will work. as long as it's something fiberous, itll become part of the mix.
If you look in finishing supply places you can get those sticks , you kneed it and it becomes active. there is one called PC woody that comes in like 2 film cans ( remember film cans? ) it comes wood color or white. its fairly thick stuff.
I dont use that because I dont think it bonds into the wood as well as a liquid can and I like to wet it first, then I might add epoxy mix with dust. I think the dust isnt' helping the bond it's just in there. I'm sure there are other ideas and there are lots of products. Ive bought little bottles of A and b from the hardware store. or the dual syringe things are handy too.
mine was outdated stuff from some cement floor finishing place but it works ok so I use it for lots of things. it was free.
the epoxy has great bonding strength , that's what it does. alone it has some strength but not a lot , it might be a bit a bit brittle when fully cured, if cold, .. but if you combine fibers , like fiberglass or other stuff then it's stronger.,, like autobody filler mixed with fiberglass. the strength is really in the glass itself.
traditional "bondo",where you add a 2 inch strip of hardener to a golf ball size of it, That's more like what they use to make fiberglass boats. - polyester resin not epoxy. Its stiffer and less bonding strength. It'll work similar in a pinch but I'd favor epoxy. Most epoxys are like 1:1 or 1:3 or similar. after that you go into trade names and proprietary products.
If you have a fiberglass shop that caters to decks or boats then they will have all the products and advice you could want. all products have MSDS sheets so sometimes you can gather a little about the "secret" contents from that. If you buy it by the gallon the epoxy is about 3x the price of polyester resin. for a boat or a deck that get expensive which is another reason they dont use epoxy. but to repair a fiberglass boat then you use epoxy for the bond strength.
on a boat they spray gelcoat in the mold , then apply the fiberglass with a chopping gun and it also sprays the resin on. the waterproofing is in the gelcoat not the fiberglass itself. for a deck you do it the other way and apply the gelcoat after, but before it cures, then it knits chemically and never peels. but you can sand and paint instead and that's ok .
sometimes I want it to be less runny so then I just wait a bit and use it in that state. then its like a putty and not a liquid. the 5 minute stuff has less working time but hardens up faster. some you'll find as a product more like plasticene.
a really good source of info is the "wooden boat forum" those guys use it all the time and water is common around boats
some suffer from too much exposure, so if you sand use a mask if you use lots on other projects protect yourself or you will become more sensitive to it. it off- gasses a little but for a little repair it's not too bad. the hardeners Id stay away from as much as you can. dont get the stuff in your eyes. doing boats is a lot more intense. of course like most things, you can go buy a tiny pouch for 10 bucks or more for less, when you get into gallons or drums the price drops a lot.
I went looking for 18 3/4 inch brass screws on the weekend, did you know they come in bubble packs of 4 screws? what a racket !
-
vtattebury
- Just Arrived
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- Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:19 am
Re: Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
Thanks Phil—
I ended up just using a bit of the albatron wood filler (skipped the liquid wood). I think it turned out ok, filled the gaps, sanded and primed. Mostly I wanted to use it as a test bed, because I’ve got another area that will need a much more complicated profile and finish.
All the best!
I ended up just using a bit of the albatron wood filler (skipped the liquid wood). I think it turned out ok, filled the gaps, sanded and primed. Mostly I wanted to use it as a test bed, because I’ve got another area that will need a much more complicated profile and finish.
All the best!
Re: Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
hi vtattebury...
we haven't met....i was a regular poster on this site for years and have recently returned...
i've been restoring windows for 25 years now...i tend to steer clear of epoxy but when i do use
it, my choice is abatron...i wasn't able to view your photos either...my approach would have been
to apply one coat of blopentine (50/50 boiled linseed oil/turps) then fill and smooth the gaps with
sarco glazing putty....
hope that helps....a bit late...
we haven't met....i was a regular poster on this site for years and have recently returned...
i've been restoring windows for 25 years now...i tend to steer clear of epoxy but when i do use
it, my choice is abatron...i wasn't able to view your photos either...my approach would have been
to apply one coat of blopentine (50/50 boiled linseed oil/turps) then fill and smooth the gaps with
sarco glazing putty....
hope that helps....a bit late...
-
Gothichome
- Moderator
- Posts: 4184
- Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:34 pm
- Location: Chatham Ont
Re: Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
Jade, good to have you back. I certainly hope you had a busy summer.heartwood wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:09 am hi vtattebury...
we haven't met....i was a regular poster on this site for years and have recently returned...
i've been restoring windows for 25 years now...i tend to steer clear of epoxy but when i do use
it, my choice is abatron...i wasn't able to view your photos either...my approach would have been
to apply one coat of blopentine (50/50 boiled linseed oil/turps) then fill and smooth the gaps with
sarco glazing putty....
hope that helps....a bit late...
Re: Window sash— liquid wood? Or “Let it be?”
thanks gothic....busy as ever......good to be back.......