Advice on sealing pipe conduit through basement wall

[historicalwork]

I wondered if I could get some collective input on a situation. In the back of our house is a sunken concrete enclosure where a since abandoned well exists and a yard hydrant. The two well lines and the galvanized yard hydrant run through a pipe conduit. That comes out in the basement wall. Periodically we've been getting water through that conduit. A few years ago I opened up the enclosure and used some spray foam thinking it might keep pests out but also water (now realize it wasn't the right thing). So, this weekend I moved the concrete cover off, cleaned out the soil, cut the old abandoned well lines and pulled them from the conduit. I also braced the galvanized hydrant and fixed a few other things. This all started because i wanted to reroute the copper line inside that connects in to the galvanized hydrant pipe.

Anyway, i'm stuck wondering the best approach to sealing the conduit - mainly from water. While the concrete cover generally keeps rain out, it won't take much for it to fill during heavy rain and go down the pipe. I'm not clear if I should try something like hydraulic cementer or if there is some other better approach. I hate too use concrete in the event i have to change out the hydrant. Just doesn't seem like a good idea. Since not much of the pipe exits into the enclosure and it's fairly rusted (and i've wondered if it's rusted beneath the ground and that is bringing in water), I don't think trying to add some form of cover or grommet is possible.

So, just seeing if anyone has thoughts on what they would do. I know i'm going to seal more around the pipe on the inside incase that is allowing in water. I added a few pictures to show what i'm dealing with. Thanks!

[1918ColonialRevival]

Just to make sure I'm understanding the situation correctly, there is still one line in use going through that conduit and that's for the outdoor faucet, correct?

First, the cut lines. If the lines no longer in use are in a position where they can be pulled, I'd remove them just to make sure nothing runs down them and into the basement wall. If they can't be easily removed, I'd try to cut them as evenly across as I could and put a Fernco cap on each end. If that's not possible, I'd encase them in hydraulic cement.

For sealing the conduit, hydraulic cement will probably be the best option. Since the line is galvanized, it should be fine to cement directly around the line. If the line were copper, I would say you need to put a PVC sleeve over it first. Just be sure to cement it closed at both ends. If you ever have to open it to replace that line, hydraulic cement breaks fairly easily with a hammer and chisel.

How close is the faucet to the back wall of the house? The reason I ask is you might be better off re-running the faucet out the back of the house and just filling and capping off that hole altogether since it's no longer used as a well.

[phil]

are the water lines easy to unhook? maybe you could replace it with a new piece of galvanized conduit or waterpipe. maybe it couold come up to ground level inside. If you need a drain keep that separate. that way you'd get a better seal, nothing sticks well to dirt and rust. if you wanted you could increase the diameter.

with the hydraulic cement they recommend using a chisel to chip into fresh concrete so it's clean. it expands a little as it hardens up to make a better seal. I'd use that. if you don't want to change the pipe maybe clean it as best you can. wire brush wheel on a drill? and paint it with tar just to slow down the rust.

there is a Plasticine material you can pack inside if you wish but maybe you wouldn't want to stop any water that did get inside from exiting.

my sister had an issue with the strap ties , used to hold forms together, on a deeply buried wall. they rust out and then water came in there. I had a similar issue with a foundation crack and hydraulic cement worked well.

in a perfect world I guess a foundation would have a sealer and maybe a membrane that allows water away , and drainage but drainage depends on your water table too.

i'd just get the parts clean so it actually sticks and then use hydraulic cement. you can get it in small quantities at any building store.

I think you are supposed to wet the cement, You can check the instructions. it'll harden under water.
looks lke you just had a different reply to the same question I think we both basically gave similar advice.

[historicalwork]

1918ColonialRevival >

Yes, just this weekend i cut the two rubber hoses from the well that were still going through the conduit and terminated (were cut off) just inside the wall. That picture inside was taken prior to cutting (I should have noted). So, right now, the only thing going through is the one galvanized pipe for the yard hydrant. Your comment about just replacing with a regular outside hose big may not be a bad idea. Frankly, the hydrant is leaking and i do have to figure out how to find the replacement piece inside or change out. As dumb as it sounds, i kind of like the look of the hydrant - being in a 1905 house, having a small bard, etc (albeit on 1 ac). That pipe goes under what is a raised mud room and pantry. To the left is our cellar doors. While certainly possible, there isn't an obviously convenient place to replace at wall. Not that it matters so much, but our house is brick with concrete foundation - would have to core through it. Hydraulic cement has come up in my searches - i'm not a 100% clear how easily that could be removed if something had to be changed out. I assume it could be busted out since i wouldn't be filling the entire pipe.

As i've done some desktop searching today, this product came up - seems like maybe this is along the lines of the right material. I'm still researching. https://www.denso.net/products/densoseal-16a/

phil >

While not impossible, i could trench down and replace. As noted above, it does go under a mud room / porch to get to the way. That structure (assume was a porch at one time) is above ground a couple feet, but trenching it out would be a bit of a job given the lack of space to shovel. But not impossible. I think the enclosure wall is maybe 4" thick and then i assume it's just the pipe underground to the wall. I also have to think the pipe is rusted out in the ground. I don't know the history but the house started with a cistern and then went to a wall. Some number of years ago they switched the homes to city water due to contamination. That was way before our time here. I'm actually not sure why they built this enclosure as they did or how long ago.

I think at this point - which i know isn't super long term - is to seal from water getting in. As I think about it, i suppose i could just disconnect the galvanized pipe from inside and replace the hydrant. And then use just a PVC condition - and concrete in the rest throughout the length of the pipe. I actually just replaced the copper inside where the galvanized terminated because the copper line inside interfered where i have a sewage pump for the basement bathroom (that was a fun project...). So, i'm now wondering if I should bite the bullet and put a new hydrant in and add a new PVC conduit. I still have to make sure it's sealed. I'm tempted to hold off on that until i get the energy to dig it all out and replace it all correctly.

I was about to do the hydraulic cement and watched a few videos but then questioned if it would I would regret that if I ever replaced the pipe. But maybe the hydraulic cement at both ends would do the trick - or the product i listed above (or something similar).

Never a dull moment!

[phil]

I replaced an outside tap and did it the way it was, with an inside tap to shut off the water during winter.

you can get outside taps with a long pipe, that keeps the valve inside the house and then you dont need to remember to drain the line to protect it from freezing.

the plumbing regs could vary by area but here they specify that the outside taps need to have a backflow valve.

if you were to say hook up a garden spray attachment with chemicals to spray on your roof you can cause back pressure. If you run the hose into a standing barrel of water this also causes a similar circumstance. if the street pressure falls below the level of pressure in your house, then backflow takes place. this can draw water from your rainbarel or plant sprayer or whatnot into the city water supply. it can then feed into your house or other people's houses.

with the contraption installed on your hose bib. If a vacuum is formed , lets say the fire department put out a house near you and used a hydrant. then it sucks air from near the hosebib , not the water from the hose that you left dangling into your rainbarrel.
likewise if you put stuff to kill moss in your garden sprayer, attached to your hose and went up to the roof to spray it on , the back pressure at the hose bib caused by the height of the hose will open a valve and spill the chemical at the tap rather than causing a chance for it to backfeed the chemical into the water system.

its a minor annoyance to have one but new houses or those which are inspected may require them if your regulations do.

one of the most basic backflow preventers is the thing on a tap. then there are some with check valves or dual check valves. some have a pressure differential sensing mechanism so if they sense a situation where there is not enough pressure difference, then all the water in the building gets dumped. you can have situations where a building has sprinkler systems that are charged with an antifreeze.

what can happen is that something like a hot tub could be plumbed by a homeowner, unknowingly.
It could brew up nasty stuff and get backfed accidentally then cause a public emergency situation so there are lots of rules to prevent this situation .


In some areas more backflow protection is required. an example, If you use a grey water system like water collection from downspouts then that is considered an extra risk. having dual circuits like if you have a well supplying as well as city water, then your risk level is higher. If you are an auto shop or if you work with certain chemicals or some sort of lab, you have a higher risk category.
If the risks are high enough the need for bigger and better backflow protection systems increases. some need a yearly inspection. I took a course on inspecting the backflow preventers last year. i took the course and did the reading. I skipped the practical test and intentionally failed myself so Im not certified. Also the laws that govern are specific to area.
here most residential houses do not have a backflow preventer , just the hose bib things. In some areas the rules may require every house have a pressure differential backflow preventer.

with irrigation , in farming communities they work with pumps and sprinklers and fertilizers. some may need protection to avoid accidents. like if people plumb things wrong a pump can cause backflow back into the city supply. your hot water tank may also have a gizmo to prevent backflow at it's supply line on the top of the tank.


a toilet or a washing machine has an air gap, the water cant' jump up from the tank to the line and the gap has to be an inch or more. some really old bathtubs were filled from under the water level and thats a no no..
There was a big event in the US , new york at the time of the world trade exposition, ( 1932? ) ecoli got into the public water system and caused an outbreak. a lot of laws changed after that when the risk was assessed. some of our hoiuses predate that event so may not have plumbing upgrades to meet codes.

"events" are rare because codes protect us consumers but it is possible to do something stupid without understanding the risk so the outside supply and what it feeds could be a factor on how you plumb it,

for example if that line fed something uphill of the house it might need a backflow preventer as it could develop pressure. if it ran to the bottom of a tank then it could be fixed so it has an air gap. if it just feeds a tap outside it might be OK. you just need to think about freezing. if it does freeze up or leak , or if you want to repair the tap it's nice to have a shut off, I'd put that inside the house or the crawlspace where it wont freeze if you can. that way if it broke in winter you could shut the line off and isolate the issue.
some import those bum washers and things from other countries, they may or may not meet the requirement. restaurants also have special circumstances and they have codes for lots of that.

my house had no pressure regulator. It never had one. I didn't realize it until my hot water tank kept blowing water out. The city had increased supply pressure so my hot water tank was seeing more pressure than it had ever before and it kept blowing water out the relief valve. it wasn't the fault of the hot water tank , I just needed to add a water pressure regulator. I dialed mine down a lot because some of the piping is old. you can check it with a tire pressure gauge.

[phil]

I think I was envisioning a large diameter pipe that was just used as a method of getting the other piping into the house. In that case I'd put a big pipe there and seal it with concrete , since that pipe would just be there to protect the other piping and it wouldn't be actually "piping a fluid"

I guess a conduit has a dual meaning. I think of conduit as a generally thin walled pipe used to run wires commonly used in electrical work in but I suppose a pipe that was used to route other things like waterlines might be also considered a "conduit" int he true sense of the word.

if the pipe is simply used for routing between the crawlspace and the foundation I dont understand about keeping the water out, what would cause the water to flow in , other than a flood maybe or high water table in the area?

it seems to go down into pit. sometimes they dig a pit under a house in order to collect water to be pumped out by a sump pump, but you dont have a sump or a sump pump there , do you?

the fact that your toilet needs a pump indicates you are near or under the level of your sewer so I'm suspecting this house is in a low area subject to flooding?



If you have an old pipe running into the house that is your water supply line, then I'd replace that with modern plastic designed to be buried.

when I bought my sewer plugged up so I had a plumber connect the new sewer pipe and run a new water line from the street while the ditch was open. I would normally take on stuff like that myself but in this case I was glad to have a plumber , he worked fast, knew what to do and so I didn't have to have the guy with the digging equipment wait too long, we opened the ditch and closed it up the same day. bopping a hole for pipe through a foundation wall with a suitable hammer drill is a 5 minute job.

often the easiest and best way is to just cut out old plumbing and replace large sections rather than giving into the temptation to "restore it" Pex and the new styles of fittings are pretty reliable now and I dont have any issues replacing it rather than keeping old lines just because they are 100 years old and kind of neat. id only do that where it were visible, like brass plumbing to a sink or things like that.

im still a bit confused about what is leaking.

[historicalwork]

phil - thanks for all the feedback and ideas. I appreciate it. And I do get your point about consider doing things with new materials and methods where it makes sense.

To my problem at hand, I may be over thinking the entire thing - after all, i assume it's been as it is for a good 20+ years and maybe one bad rainy season led to a rare water entry event. This evening i was in the basement area finishing up some copper pipe soldering and took a pic inside the pipe conduit now the well lines are gone. The interior doesn't look all that bad. I think the rusty area is mainly outside on the exterior enclosure end.

But, on the other hand, I'm now questioning my assumption the issue was water coming through that pipe. Because, as mentioned, inside the basement was a lot of mud. This area is behind a small door in the bathroom and i stick my head in there maybe a few times a year. We did have a ton of water late spring and it's possible this happened back then because the mud was dried up when i realized it was there a couple weeks ago. And more of a clue, looking in the pipe this evening, i didn't see any real trace of mud in the pipe. Looking around the pipe where it enters the basement foundation, i can see where muddy water came in around the pipe. You can kind of see that in the one picture. So, that makes me now wonder if this wasn't ground water against the foundation that seeped in around the pipe - not from the concrete enclosure. I am a bit surprised at that because we generally don't have standing water (despite a fairly flat lot), all downspouts have extenders, and this particular area is covered by that pantry/mud room overhang.

I think one obvious need is to fill the area in the foundation around the pipe in the inside with hydraulic cement to prevent any water from coming in around the pipe from against the foundation wall. Then i am going to consider either hydraulic cement or that mastic type material i saw to seal the pipe (with galvanized pipe going through it) from the enclosure end.

Sorry, that's a bit of rambling too myself. I appreciate being able to share the details and I appreciate the feedback. For kicks i attached a pic inside the pipe and also a sketch that might do a better job of showing the setup.

[phil]

just some thoughts, forgive me if Im off track here..

could the conduit pipe have a bend upwards so that the water couldn't enter through it? the length of the pipe might mean a lot of digging to replace it, but maybe it's not too long or awkward to extend.

in times of old they used a packing compound at joints but they have those neoprene boots that tighten up around the outside with hose clamps over the rubber. they can join iron pipe to plastic pipe. could adding a plastic L shape and using a rubber joint from the metal pipe to a plastic L shape and running it upwards help? that way gravity would stop it from flowing in through the conduit.

the pipe that you use should be able to take any water since it's buried in the ground anyway.
maybe then you could just seal around the pipe where it exits and leave it empty in case you wanted to run other stuff down later.
you could add a second pipe along side it that is just there to drain any water that accumulates in the bottom of your pit if you have some drop but that could also perhaps act to bring water in if the water table outside is higher than the watertable under your house. a valve might be complicated.

it looks like in your hole where you dug down to where it exits the foundation , there isn't a lot of room to work or to fit to the pipe but maybe you could uses a rubber boot to extend that, then seal up the hole in the foundation, but not the inside of the pipe. maybe yiou just want a bit of somethign then not to seal it watertight but just to prevent it filling with mud.

if you run copper, or join keep in mind about dissimilar metals. for example when you hang copper pipe with the typical U shaped copper fasteners. they come with those copper nails. if you use steel nails it causes the copper to react via an electrolysis reaction over time. If you run a copper pipe inside a rusted metal pipe maybe the same effect takes place.

I wouldn't trust threaded connections too much. I tried unscrewing an old trap in my basement and it wasn't visible but as soon as I got a pipe wrench on it the threads broke because the threaded portion didn't have any rust protection, the threads stayed in the P-trap which was huge by comparison to the modern plastic. I could have cleaned up the threads and reused it, rethreaded the pipe, but plastic is easier. I replaced that with one that is easy to open up if it gets clogged.

a bit different topic, but I called my gas company because my gas line is really old. I wondered if it was a hazard, its a metal pipe. would it rust out? they said they put a small charge on the pipe and that's to prevent it from deteriorating. they didn't seem concerned at all about it's age.

we have an old campground in the family. lines run all over and they are really old. what happens is that they break and leak and we cant' see them until it get severe enough that water actually starts showing up. then since its on a well we have a pump that cycles really often. we can shut off certain zones, for example the house and cabin are separate from all the taps for the campground. It also has to be designed to drain , we shut it all down in winter.
we dont run the campground but we keep the old lines serviceable for sprinkling they have to be drained back to the pumphouse when we winterize. the house and cabin have their own lines and are buried deeper so they can take the winter better.

if they break we note where and then dig it up , but not straight away. I remember as a kid we got the tractor stuck down in a mud hole that way.


I guess your hydrant might have a below ground shutoff so the tap doesn't freeze up.

at my house on the street there is a valve that is owned by the city. it has a metal access plate. the valve isn't far below ground but never freezes. I can pop the cover off and reach it with a crescent wrench to shut off the main supply. sme need a big long T handle wrench that the city has.
I accidentally broke off the main where it enters the house and had water gushing in. nice to know where that main shutoff is. usually on the property line somewhere.


if you were to dig and follow that line to your hydrant you could possibly find leaky fittings but I wouldn't dig stuff up unnecessarily. you could pressure test it perhaps. If you did have a leaky joint that was buried that could contribute to the issues you see by wetting the ground from the leak, perhaps water could be following the pipe back from where it was leaking. its not always easy to detect a slow underground leak but I guess if it was , it would be muddy there now.

I wouldn't look for trouble. If I buried stuff I'd use plastic. maybe ask what stuff is suitable for below ground if you replace any. If it's not broke dont fix it

[phil]

others might know more about this . I remember looking at houses. went into one and they had sort of a sump pit. In there was a valve. I think it incorporated a floating ball or something similar. I think that was to let water out but not in somehow. It was very old. maybe back in the day when the sewer and the storm sewer shared lines it was related to sewer fumes. near me they dig up all the streets to separate them now.

in my area they had a bunch of houses that got flooded just a year or two before I bought. perhaps it was storm sewers , not sure. They formed a local residents association to deal with all the claims. I dont think mine was damaged but many had suites.

maybe there is a sewer valve that can prevent such a backup. but I'm not too clear on that.

I had a friend this happened to . his house was on a hill but the city closed a sewer line for repair, then they got a lot of water before they opened the line. he saw sewage filling his toilet and coming out since the city sewer was overcome. nothing he could do , he called 911 and the emergency crew got the city to come straight away. the city looked after him but what a horrible experience. he was so embarrassed his friends wondered what happened to him for a couple weeks.

mine is on a hill but the sewer is above the basement floor. when I got the line replaced I had them slope part of it and at the end it swoops up to the original height.

now I can dig deeper and run the sewer line lower. I think there is a line on the street out front which is much lower. they dug it all up and it has super good drainage so all my water just goes down there. my storm sewers aren't even connected. I keep meaning to dig a ditch about 3 feet deep along both sides, then I could connect it all properly but it seems to just look after itself since the soil seems to drain well enough. one corner of the foundation has a crack and it's a bit wet there but not much of an issue. If I wanted ot move my sewer lower I can pay about 30K to have the city move it to the front street which has a lower elevation. that could enable me to dig my basement down a foot lower so I'd have full height. then I could have a basement suite.

When the developers become interested in a site one thing they concern themselves with is how low these things are, so when they rebuild houses they can take advantage of the depth of the foundation. on some lots going deep isn't' possible. this can mean the difference in usable space in a building. not the first thing you'd consider when buying a property.

[Gothichome]

My fix would be the hydraulic cement, it’s simple and it works. I would spray some foam down the outer pipe about six inches or so in to act as a backer and trowel in the cement. Coming thru the basement wall I would try to anchor some heavy galvanized mesh to the hole as a framework and then trowel in the cement or as an alternative crib it in and pour in a looser mix of cement.