The argument for retaining historic windows

[A.Fox]

Okay, all so we and our painters started work on our windows last week, and we need some help from people who have done this before. The sashes have been pulled out, the sashes and frame stripped down and painted/stained. Now they are putting the sashes back in and having a really hard time getting the fit. The sashes aren't opening well, they aren't closing well, the existing weather stripping isn't interlocking at the check rail, so the sashes aren't aligning to lock. Unfortunately I'm not the one on site right now because we have been called back to work in the office almost full time. What might they be missing that we can tell them because it feels like they are getting ready to walk off the job after one day of re-installation?

My first question has been now, have you actually done this before? Because they seemed pretty knowledgeable when we started out. This morning I noticed some basic faux pas that I hope they have rectified such as gunking the spring bronze with paint and painting the surface where the check rails meet.

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Edit to add: The most recent discussion determined that the windows may be expanded either from high humidity or the stripping process or both, which I could see being in the height of summer (this project was supposed to happen in spring) and having lost AC 2 weeks ago. Their solution is to sand down the sides of the sash, but now I have to track down how they will deal with the weather stripping on the corners that interface with the parting bead.

[Gothichome]

So the windows are sticking or are they going cockeyed as they move? If they are sticking did you stain/pint the edges of the sash? If so you will need to sand the paint off of the sash sides. Sticking will also happen if using latex paint when fresh, more time than you would think.
If they are going up and down cockeyed did you keep the pocket weights in order and not mix them up when hanging the sash. Upper and lower sashes often have different weights, mixing a light weight with a heavy weight on the same sash will cause the sash to tilt. Along the same vain if you put the heavier weights on the lighter sash is will cause the sash’s to float in the case of the bottom and sag down if the upper sash.
Often the meeting rails will shrink in width, remember they are a hundred years or more old. You will use the sash locks to pull them together.

[1918ColonialRevival]

As Gothichome mentioned, check the edges of the sashes for stain/paint. There's not supposed to be anything on them because it will cause the exact symptom you described - sticking.

Also, did they have the sashes to more than one window out at one time? If so, is there any chance they could have gotten them mixed up when they were re-installed? On older windows, even when they are supposed to be the same size sash, there's almost always a few hundredths of an inch difference from window to window. Doesn't sound like much, but it can make or break you when it comes to raising and lowering the sashes.

It's sad when many contractors have little or no experience glazing window sash, something that was a common skill in the not too distant past.

[A.Fox]

Thanks, both of you.

Regarding weights: they haven't been taking the weights out of the pocket, just briefly each to attach the chain so I don't think that is the issue. They do have 5 sets of sashes out so I suppose they could have mixed them up but they were pretty good at numbering them on the way out. And they were numbered still when they came back. And they've mostly been sticking, not wracking.

Yes they did stain the edges of the sashes but they did not varnish any edges. Since the stain impregnates the wood, would that be as much of an issue? Plus the outmost extents of the sides of the sashes is actually the metal weather stripping which protrudes maybe 1/6" from the sides of the sash.. They did also paint the frame and install the first set of sashes in the same afternoon. We had a discussion following that and hopefully that is not the primary issue.

As of this morning they think the actual problem is our parting beads. We think when the windows last underwent a major rework in the 1960s they wrapped the parting bead in a metal weather stripping and it is just too tight for operating the top sashes. The bottom sashes are operating much better with some adjustment. Their current recommendation is to remove that. Fabricate a new stop and figure out some other method of weather stripping. Does this make sense?

Here you can see the metal clad parting bead:

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[phil]

paint doesn't slide well against paint and that's why you wont find the outsides of drawers painted,

Id use a piece of card stock like a business card to check the gap and feel for where it's tight. if you can find a piece of thin metal like a feeler gauge you can use that. Just locate the tight spots and work on those. I would leave the spring bronze. If the window is too big you can use a belt sander. wax may help.

[A.Fox]

Well the contractors are done working on the upstairs windows,  but the work on them is far from done.  They essentially got to a point in the work where they determined that they had done what they had been contacted to do,  the job had lasted longer than they expected (9 weeks total) and they were wiping their hands clean. Nevermind that several of the windows are sticking in the closed position,  and several sashes won't even closed (I guess our contract said that they would rework them to move freely, but being able to close them again costs extra).

Frankly we were ready to wipe our hands of them too. After weeks of helping them figure out what they were doing,  as the project progressed it became apparent that their finishing quality (as painters first most, the thing that they should actually excel at) was pretty poor, and any time we tried to get them to fix their work,  they responded with more makeshift solutions.

They stripped and scraped the sash interiors but stopped short of sanding or making sure they got back to bare wood and stained and urethaned right over the residual old stain and shellac, so the windows were darker and rougher than intended.  They then sanded them smooth and new coat of urethane but the dark speckles of old shellac are still under the new finish. Rather than remove bad extraordinary caulk they just went right over the top of it,  so now we have in a few spots some of the largest caulk fillets known to man. And we can't still get a clear answer whether they replaced in full all of the old glazing compound or just veneered right over some parts, old paint an all.

Anyway,  I'm now working with the windows trying to get them closed, finished,  and weatherized before winter and I have a few questions hoping those of you here might have some ideas:

1. We have 3 windows that don't want to stay up. They don't crash down,  and at certain positions they will mostly hold in place,  but mostly they slowly glue back down to close.  Is this a matter of adding more weight, and what is the best way to do this? I would guess the windows didn't do this when they were installed so what could have changed?

2. We have several pairs of small casements where their is an inactive leaf with two flush bolts and an active leaf that latches into it at the middle only.  One of these windows was too tight to close for who knows how many years and the active leaf warped. It may have gotten worse during this project because now when closed I can see daylight through the middle joint from the latch up to the top. Total warp is about 1/2" it seems like with pressure the top might come back true. Would it be possible to strap it closed from the outside and leave it like that for several months. Are there any other options to right this or would it be better to try to weatherstrip the gap?

3. Most of our windows have an 1/8" to 1/4" gap between the end of the joining extension on the check trail and the adjacent parting bead.  This is a gap directly to the outside. Is there something that can fill this gap, be it a small block of wood or a piece of foam that wouldn't affect the operation of the windows?

[Manalto]

Kilian's Hardware in Philadelphia has a variety of metal weatherstripping for windows and doors. They have a website for mail order and have been helpful on the phone when I've called with questions. They have weatherstripping designed for the meeting rails of double-hung windows. That should help with your gaps and, since it's metal, will be a long-term solution, not one that will crumble or otherwise lose efficacy. I've also bought spring bronze for the tracks the windows move in to eliminate drafts. Another member here, Bonnie, had excellent results with her window restoration using spring bronze, so I'm following her lead.

I hope others will chime in with your dropping sash issue. My first thought is that one or both of the sash weights has broken free from its rope or chain. That's easy enough to test, simply by pulling on the rope to feel if the weight is there.

[A.Fox]

Manalto,

Thank you for your reply. Our windows actually do have existing weatherstripping at the meeting rail and at head and sill. There is currently nothing at the jambs aside from adjustable interior stops (and some of those don't quite adjust enough to be effective. That said, the company doing the work painted over many of the weatherstripping parts and some have gotten bent out of alignment either during or prior to the work. This misalignment is a big part of what is keeping the windows from fully closing. In at least one case I've encountered the receiving end of the interlocking J weatherstrips had been fully panted shut. Some time spent scraping last night and that window is now another 1/4" closer to closing tight and the meeting rails aligning.

What I was actually referring to third question is probably best explained with a photo: The gap between the end of the meeting rail extension (and weatherstipping) and the parting bead is sometimes quite large, and I am exploring how to reduce that:

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Also here is the window with the warped sash (right side). There is spring bronze between but it can't possibly be bent out enough to deal with that gap.

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[Gothichome]

AFox, my thoughts

#1 the lower sashes have become heavier than the pocket weights, his could be from the excessive glazing putty, the weights and sash are usually pretty close to the same weight, I have some pocket weights were they have lightened the weights by drilling holes in the weights to get the balance just right. I think to remedy this you will hav to add weight to the pocket weights or reputty the sashes. At this time both would be a pain in the ash to do. Since the sashes have been restored (if not correctly) I would lean towards adding weight. You will have to remove the weights from the pockets unfortunately untie the sash cord and place some thing like a larger nut onto the cord above the sash weight. Unfortunately this will require removal of the sash and parting bead to get to the pocket. To figure out how much weight you can just weigh the sash and compare it to the combined weight of the pocket weights. There may well be other solutions to this problem out there that I am not aware of.

#2 with a gentle push will that casement close tight and the bolt go into its hole? If so I think just closing and bolting it and letting it be for a period of theme might ring it back to true. My big consent would be stressing that magnificent leaded panal. If the window is just mechanically jamming in the frame all it might take is a bit of sanding.

#3 I think your only solution is to replace the bronze weather strip if you want to get ride of the gap, this may cause you more grief by creating damage to the newly stained sash than the fix is worth, I would be inclined to leave it as is.

Ron

[A.Fox]

Gothichome, thank you for the thoughts. Some responses and follow up questions:

1. Potential weight from excessive glazing putty: our windows have what seem to be fairly shallow glass channel. They are about 1/4" deep even though we have fairly large glass sizes (getting up to 40"x29"). The new glazing compound laps about 1/4" onto the vision part of the glass. Would it originally have been sized to meet the wood and be invisible on the inside even at this shallow depth? If that's it I suppose that additional 1/4" could add as much as a half pound to the window weight.
We had the sashes re-chained, so removing them hasn't been too challenging (and even though I haven't seen the weights I'm assuming this makes changing out the weights easier too. The contractors were exploring adding weight as well, but since they kept referring to our weights as 2 lb weights, even though they must be much heavier than that I didn't figure they would ever get to a solution that worked.

2. The problem sash is actually the one on the right without flushbolts so there is nothing in it's design to help pull in the top. Gently pushing it in seemed like it would do it, and my initial thought was to use a steel strap on the outside screwed into both sashes and gradually tighten it, but I too have though about the street placed on the glass panel. Some day those glass panels will need to be taken for glazing and restoration too so that may be the time to try to remedy the sash. Meanwhile maybe we can stuff something in the gap over the winter?

3. I was thinking of applying a small strip of foam in that gap on both sashes, so even if we didn't have the interlocking of the weather stripping, that gap would be reduced. It doesn't seem like that would get in the way and be reversible if it was, unless anyone here thinks otherwise?

Lastly,

I've started taking on the last window that was in our scope myself, starting by scraping, priming, and caulking a few manageable sections of the frame at a time, with the intent that I can then paint everything ecept the bottom sashes at once.

Where it started:

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And my current progress:

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When I get to the sashes, the bottom 3 are free, so my inclination is to take them out and do the exterior side work laid horizontal, plus the one has a necessary repair on the bottom that would be much easier laying flat. But the upper sashes are still sealed in place and it seems like it will be quite the effort to get them freed and our metal clad parting rails stripped, removed, and properly replaced when we don't particularly need these to operate. Would it work to replace the glazing compound in the vertical position on these three without removing the glass? Is it safe to assume that the old glazing points will hold the glass through the process?