The argument for retaining historic windows

[A.Fox]

I know that this board would generally agree that salvageable historic wood windows should be restored and retained, but how do you make that argument to someone?

Specifically, my partner is convinced that restoring our wood windows is a waste of money when we could just get new windows.

The house currently has all of it's original windows except in the kitchen (all wood Anderson unit installed in the 1960s that blends with all the rest). In all it has 22 double hung sash windows, 14 pairs of casements, 3 single casements, 15 fixed transom sashes, and 8 basement windows. All are in reasonable condition as far as not seeing any rot, but the glazing compound is past due for replacement, as is the exterior painting, most are painted shut and several of the sash cords have broken. The house also does not have any storm windows (I actually think the previous owner may have discarded all of them).

We've had a few different price quotes for work done recently:

Pella came out and priced replacing all of the double hung windows, basement window, and kitchen window with aluminum clad wood windows with low-e, while we would retain and restore the more decorative windows. I wasn't present for the spiel, but the representative said the windows would look near identical to the current windows including having exterior ogee lug. The price was $57,000 installed, or roughly $2000 per opening.

We recently had a wood stripping company working on our house interior. Their price was $800-$1200 per window for the inside stripping and refinishing including the interior trim. They had an additional cost for freeing up and rechaining the windows. Glazing putty and exterior painting wasn't really their expertise. We tested them with one window and the exterior work was pretty rough. They also refinished the sashes then released them and did the exterior work so all of the edges are pretty rough.

Over a year ago we had a company similarly looking at refinishing interior trim and windows. Their charge was $800 per window, and I believe that it included the exterior as well, but the quote was so vague it's hard to tell. We've been trying to get them back out to review and update their quote but with the current pandemic, it's been delayed.

Lastly, and most recently we had a company that specialized in wood restoration come out. They priced out all windows except for the basement, including removing the sashes, and stops to their workshop, stripping and repainting, replacing glazing putty, installing integral weather stripping, new sash locks, rechaining, and repainting. They would also refinish the window sill, but due to their time constraints we would have to figure out painting the remainder of the exterior frame and brickmold ourselves. It sounded like they offered a very good product, but their total came out to $57,000, or roughly $1550 per opening.

My partner's argument is that we would do all of that work and still have to finish the exterior painting and purchase storm windows, work on the basement windows, and we would still have "old" single pane windows that need to be repainted and maintained. Whereas for $12,000 more we could repair our special windows and replace everything else. But he also says with our house worth under $400k, it doesn't make sense to invest so much in windows, but I think that is an argument against new windows as well (not to mention that we don't have a spare 60-70k just sitting in a bank account somewhere for this project.

I feel like the house's look would be fundamentally changed by the aluminum cladding and low-e/UV coatings; I can certainly tell which of our neighbors have replacement windows, even when they are good. And we would be replacing windows that could last another 100 years with one's that might get 30 years. I think maybe we should get some additional quotes (which has been challenging as many companies are either too busy or think that at 20-30 miles, we are too far away). I also want to look into some real storm window quotes. We have looked into Allied and Adam's millwork and also some solutions for interior storms, especially at our casement windows. I don't think doing it ourself is going to realistic with my partner's disinterest in that work and my busy schedule.

[Manalto]

Jade Mortimer is probably the best person here to respond to your question. (She is the owner of Heartwood Window Restoration in Charlemont, Massachusetts.)

I haven't seen her around much lately, but maybe invoking her name will summon her!

[Gothichome]

A.Fox. $57k I think would be the greater waste. Original sashes are not hard to restore, it just takes time. Replacing with new windows I believe would also be a waste, remember the windows are the eye’s of your home.
If time is a real issue though,I believe bringing in the restoration company and restoring the originals is the second best option. The price of a can of paint is cheap in comparison to the cost of professional restoration. Also, even if your doing the paint yourself, you will get a sense that you are a participant in the restoration.
You can try to get across to your significant other that replacing with new windows that just won’t look right and last maybe thirty years is not good value when you can get the pro’s to restore the originals and have them last another hundred years for the same money.
I think, Jade might add a reply, she is a professional window restorer. If not I’m sure she would be happy to provide insightful you reach out.
Heartwood window restoration, she has a link in the resource section of the District.

[phil]

restoring an old house is a lot like restoring other antiques. It's a labor of love and not for everyone. Usually paying people to do such work isn't very practical but some have the means to do so and that's fine but contractors are there to make money. Yes some show great pride in workmanship.
With all that is happening in the world, I'd hold off a bit and live with what you have, live within your means. In time you will either be enthusiastic about restoration and able to devote time to it or maybe it just isn't your thing. as long as you can close them and block any bad drafts, the best solution is probably to wait rather than to destroy the components that make it a heritage building. you are not going to save money on heat and use that to pay for new windows with the difference in energy savings. One thing about antiques of any kind, they don't mind waiting. Perhaps a solution could be to make up or hire out the making of some original storms with wavy glass.
different areas have different rules and stipulations around corona virus spread prevention.

Here most are self isolating except for essential trips to grocery stores and some like me are working. If we can work at safedistances it is peritted, all restaraunts, hairdressers, any business that cant' provide safety is shut. Many shut down anyway just to be home and keep families safe. You can be charged for not obeying a 2 meter distance from another person so most projects like that are delayed. Construction is in a turmoil of decisions about what is safe. If its a business they can be charged 50K for not obeying the distancing orders. People aren't even inviting their best friends or family into their home if it can be avoided. Sadly, the reality of it is, this thing is causing many deaths and it will affect the housing market, stocks and other investments. no one is safe , even people living in remote communities are seeing people flock to those areas they think are safe and that can overwhelm the hospitals in these more remote communities. If I even just need some nails I switch projects rather than risking a run to a store. Its a great time to hunker down , stay home , stay safe and use your resources wisely. no way I'd hire contractors to enter my home right now. Keep your safety net and your eggs in the basket,wait unless it is something really critical. The reality is that it's a very serious issue and many cases are not reported and people can spread it to many unknowingly before they experience symptoms. Perhaps in a few months we will see changes, maybe some miracle immunization will be invented in the next year or two and that could change things a lot. In the meantime unless you have another house to live in I'd be super cautious. Its a joint public effort for the old people and those in care homes, the doctors and health care workers. In my opinion the real heroes are those most at risk, those in Care homes who dont have the option to isolate from others. Every time I think of doing anything chancy like going to buy nails I stop and think of them and realize this isn't just about my safety, It's just as much about others.

I have a car tent. it got shredded by wind two days ago. I found one for sale on Craigslist that was the same as the one I was about to buy in a store. I met the lady and she had on a mask and gloves and a plastic bag to put the money in. I threw it in my van, drove home and decontaminated my steering wheel right after I washed my hands. I avoided going in a store that way. It's sealed in it's bag so I'll open it carefully and discard that outer packaging but since Its "hot" I will let it sit a few days. the stuff dies in a few days on surfaces then becomes safe to touch again. I'll use the heavy duty tarp to fix my car tent on the weekend. at work we have a solution called Saber. you spray it on items , wait a few minutes and wipe it down. If we even just pass a tool from one person to the other this is the new procedure , and we have to put it down and keep our distance from each other..
My purpose in discussing all this wasn't to create drama but the awareness may be different from one community to the next but we are all fighting the same enemy. Sorry if I got the thread off track , I hope you get some other responses about your window options. If you get the passion to restore them yourself or if you need tips we have a really good knowledge base and many who would like to make good suggestions and reflect upon our window restoration experiences. all mine are part way but my focus changes as I go and I'm really not in a race. To enjoy that sort of work you need to take your watch off and get your drive from the feeling of accomplishment that you will get along the way as you work through each step. Personally I get absolutely no feeling of accomplishment in hiring others to do those types of things, but I dont expect everyone to think like me or do things just the way I do. So much depends on finances too , and that will of course vary greatly between participants. If you want step by step guidance we can provide that as a group.

good luck, stay safe out there.

[A.Fox]

Gothichome, thank you for your thoughts. I do agree that spending 60 - 70k on windows doesn't like a reasonable way forward for either new or restored windows. There isn't enough of a justified utility, aesthetics, or energy savings to justify those numbers.

I did a quick analysis of the numbers we received to try to determine if it is would be reasonable for us to expect that another company might be able to do the job cheaper. I figured that material costs probably wouldn't exceed $100 per window. That would amount to about $4000 of the $57k price. The rest would be all labor.
The contract doesn't have any indication of hours. But I looked at it two ways. First I believe that they stated that the project would take 4-6 weeks per floor. That would be a total of 64 to 128 hours, or about $414 to $828 per hour divided by the number of workers they have on the project.
I also looked at an estimate for time to restore each window. Assuming the process to include removing the sashes and stops, boarding the opening, transporting to 30 minutes from here, removing old glazing compound, stripping, cutting in new weatherstripping, new glazing compound, priming, painting, transporting back, stripping the sills and jambs, priming and painting the jambs, installing jamb weatherstripping, re-chaining, and reinstalling the stops and sashes, I calculated about 9 hours per window. Does this seem to be reasonable given the efficiency that they would have for doing 3 dozen sashes at once? That would yield about $173 per hour.

Certainly there are things that we could consider doing ourselves, but it was the extent of needs and wants that had us looking to hire this out. First the glazing putty throughout is pretty well shot, especially on the bottom of every sash. To do this well it seems would require removing all of the sashes. Once they are out it only makes sense to restore them to operation, but we were also concerned that releasing all of these currently sealed sashes could greatly increase our air infiltration.

It's also been suggested to us that we get storm windows first then work on the windows as we have the means. This would certainly protect most of each window from further deterioration in the meantime and it seems like the cost would be significantly less. I haven't decided though if our house would be better off with interior or exterior storms. Exterior windows have the advantage of protecting the window, but then we would lose the visual depth appearance of the windows. The exterior profile on our windows also seems to be unusually shallow. Either the storm would need to be tight up against the upper sash and attach to the outer stop, or it would need to attach to the brick mold which would place it out beyond the sill. On the interior we would either need to remove the sash pulls each winter or remove our shades.

[A.Fox]

phil,

Thank you for your thoughts. This definitely is not something that we are trying to do right now this month anyway, although most construction here is still proceeding and considered essential. Actually here is Indiana most people seem to be generally still out and about despite the stay-at-home order. The stores that can stay open are busier than ever because people have nothing else to do. That's probably going to start getting locked down as our cases continue to increase.

The company that did price this is booked until next year. A lot of local companies have been very busy the last few years, so we are likely to find that most places. But I do think we need to take some action soon since we have both sills that have no paint and bottom sash rails with no glazing compound, or compound that is so peeled away from the window that it might as well not be there. I'm concerned about rot, but at least we have very deep eaves.

[A.Fox]

Apparently we had a painter come out and look at the job yesterday, which didn't help my argument. It's someone my partner knows who does exterior and interior painting, can do stripping etc. He declined the job as being too much of a commitment for being 45 minutes away, but recommended that we just replace the windows, as restoring them would not be cost effective. His price otherwise would be $2800 per window.

[phil]

some may depend upon the overhang of your roof. as an example I freed up one window scraped the paint off and simply applied some danish oil, meaning to do more coats. after 10 years I still have had no issues. the windows only really rot fast if they get wet and can't dry. the methods of making windows were studied and copied and tweaked over many many generations so I wouldn't be tempted to change the dimensions or go to plastic and aluminum.

a lot of old houses may be quite sheltered because the style used to incorporate more roof overhang than today in many cases. If height doesn't prevent safe access you may be able to temporarily refill missing window grout and then it wont really change how much work it is to do it properly later. you can also soak any exposed wood with a mixture of linseed oil and turpentine , or danish oil and turpentine. I'ts good to do this is you scrape and even if you are painting. the oil helps block the capillary action into the wood it fills pores near the surface and it dries, It isnt' like engine oil. It is a finish all to it's own but can be painted over. the turps help draw the stuff into the wood and also provides some resistance to insects and things.
I'd paint the outward facing surfaces to gain more UV protection. inside your choice I prefer to see the woodwork but that's a preference. If you paint and dont worry about the little flecks of embedded paint this is much faster.

I understand that you may not want to do all the work but as a comparison , you could go to an equipment auction or shop on the used market and buy all the machines needed to build all new windows for less than the prices you are considering. Perhaps someone is willing to make them, if you could hook up with someone with those abilities and an interest in setting up a wood shop maybe you could work out a deal then they could spend a month or two creating and installing new windows. It seems unlikely you really need all new windows. You can restore them as long as they aren't badly rotted. If the bottom rails are coming apart badly I'd lean to replicating you can do some with epoxy or epoxy and wood dust or other products. replacing only one of the 4 pieces presents issues because when they are made they use a matched pair of knives for the router or shaper or molding cutter or whatever machine you choose for that.


I'd use fir for any parts, that's what all mine are and it seems normal. If you consider other pre-made windows that are wood you can look up the rot resistance of various wood types in comparison tables. I'd try to reclaim lumber I found used, cut down beams , doors anything that has a nice tight grain and dimensions you can work within. that saves cost and allows the use of old growth lumber. You can always buy new fir. and some may offer other wood types but that's what's most often used here. there are sources of lumber that has been submerged from flooded areas like near hydro dams, where they flooded forests 100 years ago. some is being used, it doesn't rot under water. we still have giant fir trees here but it is a limited and valuable resource. I got a couple of runs of specific sizes cut for me by a little mill and dried and processed it myself, that saved a lot on wood cost. the drying takes time. It's something you might plan ahead for. I put a fan on for a couple of months and rushed the dry time. a year per inch or so of thickness is expected. the planks shrink , check near the ends and normalize then they can be used. You don't want to make windows out of green lumber or they will go out of plane (not flat) someone making windows commercially would buy ahead and allow time for it to acclimatize before use. re-claimed lumber may be really dry to start with but it may also have embedded nails and things to deal with and watch for.planer knives can get chipped for example so some woodworkers refuse to reuse lumber while for some it isn't an issue. If you got giant barn beams it probably wouldn't be riddled with small fasteners. old doors have some nice straight tight grained lumber in them. you might find pine in your area suitable , here pine is a low grade material used for framing lumber but not things like windows. same for spruce. Maple may not have such high rot resistance but when you speak of species where they grow , how big they are has importance and there are many subspecies and variations. IPE , or ironwood is hard on blades , heavy and very hard but has great rot resistance. If you make them last longer you may not be here to see that so I'd be reasonable.

you may find that some companies are open to planning and discussion and not very busy due to the circumstances so it is a good time for planning and email discussions and such. I'm sure they are all eager to at least line up jobs and get ready. for a little guy that works alone he may choose to keep working in solitary mode. If you had several workers onsite that presents dangers, it may slow them or they may have difficulty working together and maintaining a safe distance from each other. Things change fast so what seems casual may turn to something similar to a military lockdown in short time so I'd just keep that in mind and not take too much apart at once.

I think Id use exterior storms on some windows and interior on others, you may find some things like nice hardware so they can tip out allowing the inner windows to still open in some cases a bifold may work as an interior storm may need room to swing if you want it to open. I thought I might make my kitchen windows split in the middle so the top can open but the bottom would require the counter to be cleared for clearance. some of my living room windows are casement windows, they swing out so they would need interior storms, my bay window has double hung ones So I envision storms that tip out and leave an opening top and bottom when opened up .
you may think about each separately and maybe study the hardware sources. If you trap water vapor between two windows that can cause quick rot so you need some ventilation between , drilling a little hole is easy. Its something to monitor later.

I took a little course on google sketchup. it got cut short due to the conditions but I learned a little about it. If you wanted to fool around with that it may be helpful , if you happen to be so inclined. Its basically a free but dumbed down version of Autocad. It can be used in various ways , for pre-planning kitchens and cabinets and maybe windows. It's not to hard to get into it and fool around with. there is other similar software to learn about if that's your thing. if you can provide drawings it may help communicate your wants more clearly than words.
on a higher level some of these programs can be used to make CNC files which are in turn followed by CNC machinery. in a production environment files like that may be sent to something like a 5 axis MAKA router so basically the plank is sucked down and the robot does all the work. it changes tooling itself and attacks the workpiece in a very efficient way but you dont buy one of those for a home workshop.
If the existing equipment is like a shaper, jointer, tablesaw, sanding machines then the maker would use that. this may be more typical to a smaller shop. The end results could look very similar. This may affect the pricing and the hours of labor and the overhead of the company.

Most big commercial shops use modern CNC types of machines to speed production and changing sizes is quite easy by manipulating existing files rather than re-inventing the whole job. this saves labor. One can accomplish making windows with no more than a tablesaw in your basement and a router by comparison. So this will vary by who you deal with and what their equipment is like. If you compare pricing you may take that into account. As long as they make a good product that's really all you are going to care about. a one man shop may be fine for this or a place that specializes in windows alone may be able to undercut with faster machinery.

[Gothichome]

Here is Jades (Heartwood Restoration) she has been happy to provide us some guidance in the past. Drop her a line about your restoration options. Tell her Gothichome sent you.
http://heartwoodrestoration.com/

[A.Fox]

Thanks, Gothicrome, I’ll reach out once I have time to give it some thought.

Phil, I have also been wondering about the cost to build new windows versus the quotes we have received, and thought that we are probably getting close to those prices, especially for 2800. This was also apparent in the first quote which included $3600 to restore the remaining 6 piece storm on our 8’x5’ stair window. For that price I think we could purchase, have painted and installed a new storm set, and even get storms on a couple other windows.

I think in addition to looking into a few other companies, I may look into the possibility of pairing with a handyman for a partial in project. We have someone who has already done some work in the house. In particular I can see having someone to help get windows apart, since they will need to be worked from both the inside and outside with the gunked up paint, fitting exterior storms if we go that fought, etc. I’m also thinking about testing my stripping and putty skills on one of the stair window storm units (the two smallest are only 18*14) to see how it comes out.

Regarding overhangs, our second floor and sunroom windows are pretty well protected. The house has 3 foot deep eaves that extend down almost to the top of the windows. The first floor windows are a little less protected, and my greatest concern is the breakfast room the doesn’t have any roof to protect it. That set of windows at least I was hoping to get done this year or last and is probably the best candidate for being patched up at least temporarily.