So some positive development: my partner has come to the conclusion, similar to Gothichome's original opinion, that as much as he likes the idea of new weather sealed, storm-window-less, tilt-in, built-in screened new windows, he couldn't justify spending so much on either new windows or window restoration. But I didn't get much enthusiasm from doing them ourselves either.
Meanwhile, I've been taking a bit of time to study our windows. It seems that they already have weatherstriping, with a mix of spring bronze and interlocking components at the sill and the meeting rail. I think in many cases I've also been able to figure why some of them leak (in most cases faulty fitting or shifting of the components and just needing adjustment. I've spent some time talking to a friend who has restored some of his own windows and the things that he has learned which has been very helpful. I haven't had a chance to reach out to other professionals, such as Jade or others in the local area, but hoping to do that soon.
As far as wavy historic glass goes, we don't have any. It's all about as smooth as can be, so I suspect the original family had it all changed out sometime during their 75 years living here, possibly in the early 60s when many updates were done.
The argument for retaining historic windows
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GinaC
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Re: The argument for retaining historic windows
A.Fox wrote:As far as wavy historic glass goes, we don't have any. It's all about as smooth as can be, so I suspect the original family had it all changed out sometime during their 75 years living here, possibly in the early 60s when many updates were done.
My house is the baby around here, and I have wavy glass. It's not as wavy as in some older houses, but it's not flat either. I believe that the process of manufacturing flat "modern" glass was developed in the 1950's.
1939 Minimal Traditional
Re: The argument for retaining historic windows
I’m new here so you can take my thoughts with a grain of salt but I will vote for restoration though there are hidden costs with both routes that may not have been mentioned
New windows will have an energy savings but may need to be replaced after 30 years so you would likely wipe out your utility savings
Old windows should have a storm so factor that in as well as having them taken out and put in every year. They will also need maintenance. If you stay on top of it it could mean a simple coat of paint every 10-15 years depending
From what it sounds like they need to be glazed and freed-up and the exterior painted first and foremost. That is something that can be done this year if you can find someone who is not booked. Also it would be good to get someone to make storms as soon as possible after the fixed work is done. The interior work sounds fairly straightforward. Sash cords are tedious but once you get in a rhythm each double-hung can be done in 30 minutes or so. If the interiors are stained and shellacked that can be fun and gratifying to refresh. If they’re painted and have flakes thicker than 1/8” then it’s another story. They still can be sanded filled and painted quicker than stripping and painting so the decision there would be aesthetic
All in all doesn’t sound like too big of a project if you take it piece by piece even if you do it yourself. Exterior first and then take the time to go room by room
New windows will have an energy savings but may need to be replaced after 30 years so you would likely wipe out your utility savings
Old windows should have a storm so factor that in as well as having them taken out and put in every year. They will also need maintenance. If you stay on top of it it could mean a simple coat of paint every 10-15 years depending
From what it sounds like they need to be glazed and freed-up and the exterior painted first and foremost. That is something that can be done this year if you can find someone who is not booked. Also it would be good to get someone to make storms as soon as possible after the fixed work is done. The interior work sounds fairly straightforward. Sash cords are tedious but once you get in a rhythm each double-hung can be done in 30 minutes or so. If the interiors are stained and shellacked that can be fun and gratifying to refresh. If they’re painted and have flakes thicker than 1/8” then it’s another story. They still can be sanded filled and painted quicker than stripping and painting so the decision there would be aesthetic
All in all doesn’t sound like too big of a project if you take it piece by piece even if you do it yourself. Exterior first and then take the time to go room by room
Re: The argument for retaining historic windows
greetings old friends! been away for a while but still busy restoring windows....it's 10:30 at night and i thought 'wow, i've got to get back to the historic district'...a bit sleepy to respond in full...thanks for the nice comments.....a.fox, give me a call...i'd be happy to share my feedback with you...we restore window sash from 1930 and older, mostly 19th century and early 20th...
stay safe and healthy...
....jade
stay safe and healthy...
....jade
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Gothichome
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Re: The argument for retaining historic windows
Jade, good to hear your pleasing smile once again.
Re: The argument for retaining historic windows
Hi Jade! Nice to see you back.
Re: The argument for retaining historic windows
Sometimes saving what you already have can be the best course of action. I have an awning/dormer window that was installed in 1994. This was done by the previous owners two years before I bought my house. I first noticed the rotted wood in the sill and wood window frames in the early 2000's. I did some piecemeal repairs but the sill and window frames continued to rot.
I reached out to see if I could find a contractor to just replace this unit and be done with it. Nobody wanted to take on such a small job. At the very beginning of the shutdown in early March I got an estimate from Lowe's for just a cheap replacement unit which was $800.00 and change for the window alone. This was the price for a bottom of the line vinyl window unit.
Having nothing to lose I tore into the old window frame. I don't know the brand but this sill was built up using milled finger jointed lumber that was built up instead of one solid piece of lumber.
I was able to cut out the rotted sill and scab in a treated section of 2x4. gluing it into place with Gorilla Glue.
Glueing the new wood in place:
]
I used a chizel and angle grinder with a sanding disc to shape the sill together.
The windows themselves also had rot on the lower frames which was treated and repaired with scabbed in wood and Abatron wood hardners and epoxies.
This shows where an entire section of the frame has been taken out and two pieces of wood installed using “Gorilla Glue.” The black is from the reaction of the 2-part epoxy wood hardener which has soaked into the soft wood fibers:
Mid way point:
Here is the window all trimmed out. Once it is all cured it will get a sanding and painting:
All in all the materials for this job came in at under $100.00.
Windows reinstalled:
These windows are far from being historic, but by restoring what was already here I saved myself a lot of money. This was all done with basic hand and power tools.
I reached out to see if I could find a contractor to just replace this unit and be done with it. Nobody wanted to take on such a small job. At the very beginning of the shutdown in early March I got an estimate from Lowe's for just a cheap replacement unit which was $800.00 and change for the window alone. This was the price for a bottom of the line vinyl window unit.
Having nothing to lose I tore into the old window frame. I don't know the brand but this sill was built up using milled finger jointed lumber that was built up instead of one solid piece of lumber.
I was able to cut out the rotted sill and scab in a treated section of 2x4. gluing it into place with Gorilla Glue.
Glueing the new wood in place:
]I used a chizel and angle grinder with a sanding disc to shape the sill together.
The windows themselves also had rot on the lower frames which was treated and repaired with scabbed in wood and Abatron wood hardners and epoxies.
This shows where an entire section of the frame has been taken out and two pieces of wood installed using “Gorilla Glue.” The black is from the reaction of the 2-part epoxy wood hardener which has soaked into the soft wood fibers:
Mid way point:
Here is the window all trimmed out. Once it is all cured it will get a sanding and painting:
All in all the materials for this job came in at under $100.00.
Windows reinstalled:
These windows are far from being historic, but by restoring what was already here I saved myself a lot of money. This was all done with basic hand and power tools.
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phil
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Re: The argument for retaining historic windows
The repairs look fine. Not something I use often but the electric planes can be handy if you need to take big chunks away. one thing ive done is buried long screws in the sill edge to suck it tight and then just put plugs or epoxy to hide the buried screw heads in there.
I got to wondering why it gets wet. I guess they used pine and something with better rot resistance may have fared better. I wonder if its just my perception of the picture but perhaps the slope over the dormer is leaning towards a minimum slope for shingles. maybe some flashing could help the drip edge near the rafter tails? anyway In sure it will be good for a long while. whats your opinion on the gorilla glue? I bought a little bottle meaning to experiment with it but it hardened with the cap still on. one good thing about epoxy is it seems to last forever until you mix the parts. super glue also seems to harden in the tube after a year or so. I bought a larger sized bottle and the cap got glued right on tight, so I can only open it if I use a knife or something. refrigeration helps, evidently.
I got to wondering why it gets wet. I guess they used pine and something with better rot resistance may have fared better. I wonder if its just my perception of the picture but perhaps the slope over the dormer is leaning towards a minimum slope for shingles. maybe some flashing could help the drip edge near the rafter tails? anyway In sure it will be good for a long while. whats your opinion on the gorilla glue? I bought a little bottle meaning to experiment with it but it hardened with the cap still on. one good thing about epoxy is it seems to last forever until you mix the parts. super glue also seems to harden in the tube after a year or so. I bought a larger sized bottle and the cap got glued right on tight, so I can only open it if I use a knife or something. refrigeration helps, evidently.
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Gothichome
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- Location: Chatham Ont
Re: The argument for retaining historic windows
Jamie that repair looks fine to me. I too have used the same methods on a couple of storms, it may not be the Norm Abrams approach but it does work. Nice work.
Re: The argument for retaining historic windows
Phil: It is a long story... The previous owners converted the unused 1/2 story into an efficiency apartment. This addition was done on the cheap in many ways.Originally there was a whole house fan that vented out through this space. I have no idea what the original windows were. Most likely they were just slat/wood vents. This window faces west and is in the shade of an ancient oak tree. This area is always in the shade and damp. That cheap finger jointed wood did not stand a chance. I've been really happy with the Gorilla Glue for repairs like this. I learned to always make sure there was no glue residue in the cap when replacing after a job.
When I did a case restoration to my English "white dial" 1830's grandfather clock 15 years back I only used hot hide glue to reattach the center to the base where it had broken loose. Trust me, this case was not cabinetmaking at it's finest. It was more like "19th century Ikea".... that inital "hot glue" repair lasted a few years and let loose. I was annoyed enough to Gorlilla glue it back together. Many years later that repair is still holding tight and should never come apart in my lifetime. I know you are never to do this kind of repair to an antique, but it is not like it is a really quality piece of furniture to begin with.
There was a problem with the roof deck and flashing. Where the original flashing was positioned around this corner side trim, a leak developed. New decking was installed as well as flashing. The siding trim pieces were replaced. I ran the new trim so it is about 1/2" above the flashing/roof deck. If you look closely at the dormer picture you can just make this gap out. This now allows water in the flashing a direct route down without having to "detour" and potentally leak around and cause rot to this trim. So far all is good with no drip to the porch under this that had been dripping for way too long.....
When I did a case restoration to my English "white dial" 1830's grandfather clock 15 years back I only used hot hide glue to reattach the center to the base where it had broken loose. Trust me, this case was not cabinetmaking at it's finest. It was more like "19th century Ikea".... that inital "hot glue" repair lasted a few years and let loose. I was annoyed enough to Gorlilla glue it back together. Many years later that repair is still holding tight and should never come apart in my lifetime. I know you are never to do this kind of repair to an antique, but it is not like it is a really quality piece of furniture to begin with.
There was a problem with the roof deck and flashing. Where the original flashing was positioned around this corner side trim, a leak developed. New decking was installed as well as flashing. The siding trim pieces were replaced. I ran the new trim so it is about 1/2" above the flashing/roof deck. If you look closely at the dormer picture you can just make this gap out. This now allows water in the flashing a direct route down without having to "detour" and potentally leak around and cause rot to this trim. So far all is good with no drip to the porch under this that had been dripping for way too long.....