mine had a little leak near the hood vent. the roofing is all horrible tere and I aim to get to replacing that last 1/4 once it's nice out and I get time off. I have a drip that is unrelated but I think it's just because I wrapped the lead flashing toight to the lead and it needs some tape so the water cant' get between the lead and the pipe.
one thing I found noticible from the ground is that if I look up at the fascia board that the gutter is nailed to. the board is wet , That's evidence it isn't all going in the gutter but dripping from just beside it. wats happening is the water is getting under the flashing near y hood fan vent and running down the pywood and almost making it to the gutter. but not quite.
during my re roofing I'm adding a membrane and a drip edge. the drip edge above the gutter deflects any water from the roof into the gutter. It is pretty well hidden under the bottom row of my asphalt shingles. on the gable ends it looks like an L shape but with a little crease along the bottom edge so the water drips instead of soaking the fascia board. that one is visible as is the fascia on the gable ends of the roof.
on your tile roof , I'm not sure if they would have plywood under it. I havent' ever worked on a tile roof like that but there may be some info on youtube. I found lots of helpful ones and they helped a great deal for me doing my own roof. If you have plywood then maybe a rubber stick on membrane could help but you might have to get them to clear an area at a time then put them back and that might be a considerable cost if it were the entire roof and not just a localized area. I think if the cricket was bigger and higher it could shed on top of the tile and also get it away from the edges of the chimney area completely,
but the roofers will know better.
I have a neighbor with a roof like yours and they threw all the tile down , laid new plywood and then a new asphalt shingle roof. It seemed extreme because the clay roofing tile itself should last a long long time. It's one of those 70's style houses with Spanish styling. They were pretty typical here at that time.
Ill select good weather to tackle the rest of my roof. I think the plywood is old in that section and I can't know if it all needs to come off. when I get in there I will need some time to change the plywood, if it's OK Ill feel lucky. new houses seem to use chipboard but I dont trust the stuff. there are various types of membrane, the one I got is ony about 100 a roll and quite thin but it serves the purpose of working as a temorary roof since Im so slow and some will be uncovered for a while. It has a non slip surface and a thn plastic membrane that is supposed to seal around all the nails. if a shingle gets lost it will help a lot because it is like a roof in itself. once the plywood gets soaked of course it rots within months.
When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
Re: When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
Well the roofers came back with a price of $5000 to seal the chimney crown and add caps to the chimney pots. That seems to be an awful lot to pay in order to rule out one variable in our leak, which seems to be getting worse. The wallpaper is collecting water behind in today (it feels like pushing on a water bed), the wrinkles in the paper now extend across 2/3 of the width of the chimney breast. We haven't had hardly an rain in 4 days, but there was a decent rain Wednesday and part of Thursday last week.
We have also since had a chimney sweep look at all three fireplaces. They were generally very clean and had no obstructions, but there was a fair amount of cracked clay flue tiles and missing mortar.
I of the mind that we should tarp the top of the chimney, provided that we can do that without getting cited by the city, and see what happens over several weeks.
We have also since had a chimney sweep look at all three fireplaces. They were generally very clean and had no obstructions, but there was a fair amount of cracked clay flue tiles and missing mortar.
I of the mind that we should tarp the top of the chimney, provided that we can do that without getting cited by the city, and see what happens over several weeks.
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Gothichome
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Re: When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
Gezzzz, are they using gold to seal it? Capping off the flews seems like a reasonable test. If your doing to tarp, I would not use those cheap blue tarps the weather will just tear it apart, go with a better quality.
Re: When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
I think that price covers a standard cap sealer and standard aluminum chimney cap. Part of it may be factoring in the inspection time, and that they are located nearly 2 hours away in Rockford, IL. But they are also the only company that we feel comfortable walking on the same area of clay tile roof with warranty work in question versus bringing in a big lift. At the same time I feel like for that price we should be able to come close to replacing the cap, even with a lift rental.
They happened to be visiting our house today to take measurements, so we had them inspect the attic again. Roof joists, brick, insulation, and ceiling are all very wet up there right up against the chimney, but they are still certain it is stemming from the chimney.
Here's some pictures that they have shared from up there. I definitely didn't expect the cap to be constructed of 6 individual pieces:
This last photo shows the one flue where the clay tile flue units don't quite align and there is an odd shelf protruding into the chimney pot on one side, but it's still not very big.
They happened to be visiting our house today to take measurements, so we had them inspect the attic again. Roof joists, brick, insulation, and ceiling are all very wet up there right up against the chimney, but they are still certain it is stemming from the chimney.
Here's some pictures that they have shared from up there. I definitely didn't expect the cap to be constructed of 6 individual pieces:
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This last photo shows the one flue where the clay tile flue units don't quite align and there is an odd shelf protruding into the chimney pot on one side, but it's still not very big.
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phil
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Re: When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
what if you get three buckets. take a long stick and push them up onto the three chimney flues ( upside down) then no water can go down the chimney.
next stick a big fan in your attic, let it run and dry things up that will help minimize damage and is dry then it is easier to see the source.
then see what happens, You could duplicate rain with a sprinkler or just wait.
if its dry in there and starts getting wet again try to localize the area of the leak to prevent repairing stuff that isn't leaking anyway.
I agree with the cheap tarps. I just got an 18 x 20 foot one for the top of my car shelter. . it is heavy duty and doesnt' flap around so much in the wind , cost new is 150 CDN I got mine still new off craigslist for $125 . it still seemed like a lot for a plastic tarp but its better than the cheap ones. I think its 8 mil. that's 8 thousandths of an inch or or .008" thats roughly $100 US.. you could do better if you have time to shop for deals.
mine is "power fist" which is a cheapo brand but it was a lot heavier than most I've seen. If the tarp can extend over the peak then it wont creep under your tarp. You might need to nail a board over it to keep it down. not sure where you nail to with the tiles on there. one way is to tie a 2x4 onto two ends , roll it up like that then unroll it on the roof. dont get one too big or it can end up acting like a giant sail and if the wind really picks up they can pull pretty hard. you can always do a few patch repairs later if you need to stick a board over it and nail it down through your tarp.
perhaps you could narrow the problem area down more by lifting the tarp from one area and not others , then wetting the roof and checking in the attic for leakage.
here the most common are the IKO structural shingles are about 36 Cdn dollars a pack and it takes either two or three packs per square. three packs for structural shingles or two packs if you choose the flatter 3 tab variety. a square is 10 x 10 if you just look at home depot at the price you can quickly figure in the ( retail) cost of a whole roof in materials. nails are pretty cheap but the roofer would also perhaps suggest some new flashings or vents. I think if you triple the material costs you might be close to a competitive price for a new roof. it will be over 5K but I dont think the material cost for a whole new roof was that much. of course labor is what adds up , especially with travel time of a crew and not just one guy.
perhaps it is too early to replace the roof, that tile should last really well but if the issues continue and you keep needing little repairs maybe you can weight it up. It might be possible to offload a section at a time and put a membrane down then the tile but that sounds labor intensive to me. part of that might be how much you like tile in comparison to asphalt shingles. Cedar looks nicer in my opinion more fitting to the heritage at least for my house, but that's more expensive.
one other way is to strap the roof and put a new plywood deck and then roofing over the old. then you can have a really good ridge venting system as the air can enter the eves and exit near the peak, that air gap will make your house a lot cooler in summer so perhaps in some areas it's worth doing. If you were to add more on top of the tile then weight could be something to consider.
the roofing membrane I am using is also good for temporary repairs you get a big roll for about 100 bucks and it can take weather for a few months. so one way is to roll some of that out, or even roofing felt, and nail it down as a temporary repair , roofing felt is cheap .
your age may be a consideration. Im in my 50's and if I figure my roof will last 25 years Ill be near 80. at that age I won't be up on the roof so it gave me some peace of mind to get it done at this point in life with new materials.
next stick a big fan in your attic, let it run and dry things up that will help minimize damage and is dry then it is easier to see the source.
then see what happens, You could duplicate rain with a sprinkler or just wait.
if its dry in there and starts getting wet again try to localize the area of the leak to prevent repairing stuff that isn't leaking anyway.
I agree with the cheap tarps. I just got an 18 x 20 foot one for the top of my car shelter. . it is heavy duty and doesnt' flap around so much in the wind , cost new is 150 CDN I got mine still new off craigslist for $125 . it still seemed like a lot for a plastic tarp but its better than the cheap ones. I think its 8 mil. that's 8 thousandths of an inch or or .008" thats roughly $100 US.. you could do better if you have time to shop for deals.
mine is "power fist" which is a cheapo brand but it was a lot heavier than most I've seen. If the tarp can extend over the peak then it wont creep under your tarp. You might need to nail a board over it to keep it down. not sure where you nail to with the tiles on there. one way is to tie a 2x4 onto two ends , roll it up like that then unroll it on the roof. dont get one too big or it can end up acting like a giant sail and if the wind really picks up they can pull pretty hard. you can always do a few patch repairs later if you need to stick a board over it and nail it down through your tarp.
perhaps you could narrow the problem area down more by lifting the tarp from one area and not others , then wetting the roof and checking in the attic for leakage.
here the most common are the IKO structural shingles are about 36 Cdn dollars a pack and it takes either two or three packs per square. three packs for structural shingles or two packs if you choose the flatter 3 tab variety. a square is 10 x 10 if you just look at home depot at the price you can quickly figure in the ( retail) cost of a whole roof in materials. nails are pretty cheap but the roofer would also perhaps suggest some new flashings or vents. I think if you triple the material costs you might be close to a competitive price for a new roof. it will be over 5K but I dont think the material cost for a whole new roof was that much. of course labor is what adds up , especially with travel time of a crew and not just one guy.
perhaps it is too early to replace the roof, that tile should last really well but if the issues continue and you keep needing little repairs maybe you can weight it up. It might be possible to offload a section at a time and put a membrane down then the tile but that sounds labor intensive to me. part of that might be how much you like tile in comparison to asphalt shingles. Cedar looks nicer in my opinion more fitting to the heritage at least for my house, but that's more expensive.
one other way is to strap the roof and put a new plywood deck and then roofing over the old. then you can have a really good ridge venting system as the air can enter the eves and exit near the peak, that air gap will make your house a lot cooler in summer so perhaps in some areas it's worth doing. If you were to add more on top of the tile then weight could be something to consider.
the roofing membrane I am using is also good for temporary repairs you get a big roll for about 100 bucks and it can take weather for a few months. so one way is to roll some of that out, or even roofing felt, and nail it down as a temporary repair , roofing felt is cheap .
your age may be a consideration. Im in my 50's and if I figure my roof will last 25 years Ill be near 80. at that age I won't be up on the roof so it gave me some peace of mind to get it done at this point in life with new materials.
Re: When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
Since this seems to be moving more likely to a chimney issue, we've been thinking about the future of our fireplaces and wanted to get some of your thoughts and experiences.
Currently all 3 fireplaces in the house are wood burning. They have round clay tile flue liners as seen in the photos above and corresponding chimney pots. All three flues have been inspected and determined to be degraded to the point that they are not safe to use. All have missing mortar between liner tiles, a few cracked tile. Two have spalling tiles near the top, and one of those two has a tile where a large chunk is missing.
Our options seem to be to:
1. Cap off and abandon the fireplaces. This could be done by applying malleable copper over the top lip of each chimney pot and securing it with a copper band below each lip. This would be theoretically reversible in the future, although the chimney pots would then have a few holes drilled in them from securing the copper band.
2. Cap off the fireplaces as above and install ventless gas log sets in one or more of the fireboxes. (Probably 2 at most since getting the second floor firebox piped for gas would involve tearing apart the living room finishes). We would lose the ability to light wood fires, but we are not big wood burners ourselves, usually only when we have family gatherings.
3. Devise a vented cap for the chimney pots. This may involve a custom made solution to fit the pots. Another option was to build a screened box over the entire cap and chimney pots, but we aren't keen on how it would look. While this would allow the flues to remain open for use it would not solve our problem with the flue liner deterioration.
4. Combine the vented caps with a liner flue system such as Heat Shield. This solution may be limited if the damage to the tiles is too great it seems?
5. Combine vented caps with a new flexible stainless steel liner. Unfortunately since our clay tile liners are already sized for the chimney box and the chimney pots taper in from that size, this would be the most involved and expensive option. The chimney pots would have to come off and so would the cap to allow the clay liner to be chipped out. All of this also is complicated by 2 of the 3 flues having one or more bends to reach the different fireboxes.
We are leaning toward the second option, in that it allows us to take care of the chimney leaks now (assuming the water really is coming from the top) and when we are ready we could add the gas units. Since the gas is planned to be run through the ash dump and we aren't touching the rest of the firebox, we could always return the fireplace to wood burning if we wanted to take on a larger project in the future. But are there any other alternatives that we should be considering?
Phil, thank you for all of the thoughts. We have been taking the piecemeal replacement approach, reusing all of the old tiles we can. The side of the hip where the leak is occurring was all redone last year, which is why considering we also tuck pointed the chimney and sealed the joints in the cap that the continued link in this area has been so confounding.
Currently all 3 fireplaces in the house are wood burning. They have round clay tile flue liners as seen in the photos above and corresponding chimney pots. All three flues have been inspected and determined to be degraded to the point that they are not safe to use. All have missing mortar between liner tiles, a few cracked tile. Two have spalling tiles near the top, and one of those two has a tile where a large chunk is missing.
Our options seem to be to:
1. Cap off and abandon the fireplaces. This could be done by applying malleable copper over the top lip of each chimney pot and securing it with a copper band below each lip. This would be theoretically reversible in the future, although the chimney pots would then have a few holes drilled in them from securing the copper band.
2. Cap off the fireplaces as above and install ventless gas log sets in one or more of the fireboxes. (Probably 2 at most since getting the second floor firebox piped for gas would involve tearing apart the living room finishes). We would lose the ability to light wood fires, but we are not big wood burners ourselves, usually only when we have family gatherings.
3. Devise a vented cap for the chimney pots. This may involve a custom made solution to fit the pots. Another option was to build a screened box over the entire cap and chimney pots, but we aren't keen on how it would look. While this would allow the flues to remain open for use it would not solve our problem with the flue liner deterioration.
4. Combine the vented caps with a liner flue system such as Heat Shield. This solution may be limited if the damage to the tiles is too great it seems?
5. Combine vented caps with a new flexible stainless steel liner. Unfortunately since our clay tile liners are already sized for the chimney box and the chimney pots taper in from that size, this would be the most involved and expensive option. The chimney pots would have to come off and so would the cap to allow the clay liner to be chipped out. All of this also is complicated by 2 of the 3 flues having one or more bends to reach the different fireboxes.
We are leaning toward the second option, in that it allows us to take care of the chimney leaks now (assuming the water really is coming from the top) and when we are ready we could add the gas units. Since the gas is planned to be run through the ash dump and we aren't touching the rest of the firebox, we could always return the fireplace to wood burning if we wanted to take on a larger project in the future. But are there any other alternatives that we should be considering?
Phil, thank you for all of the thoughts. We have been taking the piecemeal replacement approach, reusing all of the old tiles we can. The side of the hip where the leak is occurring was all redone last year, which is why considering we also tuck pointed the chimney and sealed the joints in the cap that the continued link in this area has been so confounding.
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GinaC
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Re: When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
I'm just going to add this as another option in case you haven't thought of it: I installed a wood stove insert into my fireplace because it still gives the look/smell of an open fireplace without having to put out a fire at night. My ceramic flues were deteriorated and new steel liners were put in, one in the furnace flue, and the other in the fireplace flue. On top of the chimney a vented steel cap was installed -- not a pretty one, but I at least had them paint it black to blend in with the roof.
I'm very happy with it, and it really heated the house well over the winter.
I'm very happy with it, and it really heated the house well over the winter.
1939 Minimal Traditional
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mjt
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Re: When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
We didn't have water damage, but otherwise had similar issues to yours. We converted three of our fireplaces to gas for the cost of relining one flue. The relevant posts on my blog are here. The first one shows the tool needed to insert the metal liner, the cost of which was covered by the $100 surcharge for chimneys over 30 feet. I'm sure it cost them more than that to rent it for a day, so was money well spent...:
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phil
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Re: When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
My post might have been too wordy to be clear but I think before you go in deeper you need to know if you have a chimney leak, so cover the chimney, now you know rain isnt' going down there, if it still leaks, adress the roof not the chimney.
the safety aspect might be a difficult call. Id get a second opinion. mine doesnt' have any flue liners. It never did. I still use it. It seems likely to me that you got one guys opinion and maybe he was trying to sell you on work or being over cautious. I cant' say either way. I'd question a bit more about why you think its dangerous.
no point fixing the chimney because of a roof leak or the reverse so isolate the chimney out of the picture. that's why I suggested buckets, obviously not as a permanent solution.
If you wanted 3 caps you might find some pots or pans with a shape you like, maybe weld or rivet some bracketry to hold them where you like, Just thinking out loud. sheet metal workers can bend up all sorts of shapes, If you want you could see a tinsmith that works with heat and ducts, they usually have sheet metal brakes and other forming tools. you could get artistic. a good method is to make cardboard templates of what you want for them to copy. just use card stock and you can cut and tape and play until you get what you like then it's easier for them to decipher than a drawing. they will use your template as a layout instead of a graphical drawing, saves miscommunication.
you might want something a bit thick or put some concrete in there to deaden the sound otherwise they might make noise.
you might enjoy a gas heater in there rather than a real fire, that's a personal decision. I love having a real fire, especially now that people seldom have the chance to. It wouldn't be my choice unless I couldn't afford the repairs.
as a thought , could you consult with your fire department?
the safety aspect might be a difficult call. Id get a second opinion. mine doesnt' have any flue liners. It never did. I still use it. It seems likely to me that you got one guys opinion and maybe he was trying to sell you on work or being over cautious. I cant' say either way. I'd question a bit more about why you think its dangerous.
no point fixing the chimney because of a roof leak or the reverse so isolate the chimney out of the picture. that's why I suggested buckets, obviously not as a permanent solution.
If you wanted 3 caps you might find some pots or pans with a shape you like, maybe weld or rivet some bracketry to hold them where you like, Just thinking out loud. sheet metal workers can bend up all sorts of shapes, If you want you could see a tinsmith that works with heat and ducts, they usually have sheet metal brakes and other forming tools. you could get artistic. a good method is to make cardboard templates of what you want for them to copy. just use card stock and you can cut and tape and play until you get what you like then it's easier for them to decipher than a drawing. they will use your template as a layout instead of a graphical drawing, saves miscommunication.
you might want something a bit thick or put some concrete in there to deaden the sound otherwise they might make noise.
you might enjoy a gas heater in there rather than a real fire, that's a personal decision. I love having a real fire, especially now that people seldom have the chance to. It wouldn't be my choice unless I couldn't afford the repairs.
as a thought , could you consult with your fire department?
Re: When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2
Hi everyone! I haven't been here in a long time. We honestly didn't have too many projects going on at our house last year. We worked on some landscaping, did some painting, nothing too involved, and our window project got delayed by a year after a temporary loss of income among other things.
Anyway, an update on this: since we couldn't get the original roofing company to give us a revised estimate or schedule we brought in a more local restoration roofing company to look at the chimney. They for much less cost fabricated 3 copper caps (shaped like coke bottle caps) for the chimney pots, and coated the entire crown with Chimney Saver CrownSeal (this product: https://chimneysaver.com/product/crowns ... e-sealant/). They went edge to edge on the crown covering all of the upward facing joints and lapped up the chimney pots. The copper caps were just affixed with sealant so they could be removed if we wanted to again in the future.
This work was done in early August of last year. I had been monitoring the plaster on the inside and it seemed to be drying out, though our summer was also pretty dry. There were a couple spots in corners of the chimney breast between the wall and ceiling that still had elevated readings. But like much of the country we got a decent snow. We had probably 2' on the roof before it started melting last week. As it was melting I got the moisture meter back out and was dismayed that although there isn't any further visual damage (we still haven't repaired from last year), that while the ceiling was measuring dry, the tops of the walls are measuring above the 30% limit of the meter. Also this wet spot on the outside of the house that appeared last spring below the eaves has reappeared (pictures are in order May last year, yesterday, and today).
The water has to be coming from one of 4 places, right?
1. The top of the chimney. Assuming that was has no way to get into the chimney pots now and the cap is fully coated this shouldn't be happening.
2. The side walls of the chimney. As I've said these were fully tuckpointed so it seems pretty unlikely to be letting in this much much water, right? There is this one corner of the chimney that is always damp after rain, but I think it's because the cap doesn't overhang on that one corner, so the brick surface gets wet. The damp corner also doesn't currently or usually extend down the full height of the chimney:
3. Somewhere up the roof slope. This was all fully replaced in 2019. The first roofer had been in the attic and saw no signs of leaks above the chimney.
4. The flashing around the chimney. The 2nd roofer did point out how the first roofer formed their step flashing out of several individual pieces which they didn't typically recommend due to greater potential for leakage, but it fells like it would all need to be failing for that much water intrusion on all sides of the chimney.
For the water spot to be exactly the same on the outside wall, it seems like the top of the chimney either wasn't the issue, or something has to have failed up there causing the leak to re-occur. If the top of the chimney is still sound, it seems like the flashing is the next possible culprit, unless someone sees something I have not.
My first thought is to bring the 2nd roofer back for a comprehensive review of both the work that they did at the top of chimney to confirm it is still water tight, and look at the roof and flashing around the base of the chimney as a third party review. They are also from experience more likely to get here sooner, and they offer yearly roof inspections that this could be wrapped into. If they determine it is coming from somewhere within the scope of the 1st roofer, the roof is still under warranty for another year, so I would they try to get them out.
Any other thoughts? Thanks for all of the help you have all provided on this issue.
Anyway, an update on this: since we couldn't get the original roofing company to give us a revised estimate or schedule we brought in a more local restoration roofing company to look at the chimney. They for much less cost fabricated 3 copper caps (shaped like coke bottle caps) for the chimney pots, and coated the entire crown with Chimney Saver CrownSeal (this product: https://chimneysaver.com/product/crowns ... e-sealant/). They went edge to edge on the crown covering all of the upward facing joints and lapped up the chimney pots. The copper caps were just affixed with sealant so they could be removed if we wanted to again in the future.
This work was done in early August of last year. I had been monitoring the plaster on the inside and it seemed to be drying out, though our summer was also pretty dry. There were a couple spots in corners of the chimney breast between the wall and ceiling that still had elevated readings. But like much of the country we got a decent snow. We had probably 2' on the roof before it started melting last week. As it was melting I got the moisture meter back out and was dismayed that although there isn't any further visual damage (we still haven't repaired from last year), that while the ceiling was measuring dry, the tops of the walls are measuring above the 30% limit of the meter. Also this wet spot on the outside of the house that appeared last spring below the eaves has reappeared (pictures are in order May last year, yesterday, and today).
- 20_0505 LR.jpg (143.03 KiB) Viewed 636 times
- 21_0227 LR.jpg (224.7 KiB) Viewed 636 times
- 21_0228 LR.jpg (148.81 KiB) Viewed 636 times
1. The top of the chimney. Assuming that was has no way to get into the chimney pots now and the cap is fully coated this shouldn't be happening.
2. The side walls of the chimney. As I've said these were fully tuckpointed so it seems pretty unlikely to be letting in this much much water, right? There is this one corner of the chimney that is always damp after rain, but I think it's because the cap doesn't overhang on that one corner, so the brick surface gets wet. The damp corner also doesn't currently or usually extend down the full height of the chimney:
- 21_0228 02 LR.jpg (146.19 KiB) Viewed 636 times
4. The flashing around the chimney. The 2nd roofer did point out how the first roofer formed their step flashing out of several individual pieces which they didn't typically recommend due to greater potential for leakage, but it fells like it would all need to be failing for that much water intrusion on all sides of the chimney.
For the water spot to be exactly the same on the outside wall, it seems like the top of the chimney either wasn't the issue, or something has to have failed up there causing the leak to re-occur. If the top of the chimney is still sound, it seems like the flashing is the next possible culprit, unless someone sees something I have not.
My first thought is to bring the 2nd roofer back for a comprehensive review of both the work that they did at the top of chimney to confirm it is still water tight, and look at the roof and flashing around the base of the chimney as a third party review. They are also from experience more likely to get here sooner, and they offer yearly roof inspections that this could be wrapped into. If they determine it is coming from somewhere within the scope of the 1st roofer, the roof is still under warranty for another year, so I would they try to get them out.
Any other thoughts? Thanks for all of the help you have all provided on this issue.