When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2

[Gothichome]

AFox, good to here from you, sorry to hear you still have water issues. My thoughts are still with the cricket on the back side. The water pooling in the gullies and getting under the tile onto the roof deck. It is then flows around the chimney under the tiles.from there it just flows onto the brick saturating the brick.
I hate to mention it but I think you might have to pull the tiles in and around the chimney.

[A.Fox]

Gothichome, that is a thought. I would assume that there is a layer of roofing membrane on the saddle, followed by the copper flashing, with the roofing membrane from the upper roof then lapping over the copper. I was thinking about the vertical joints against the brick failing, but the horizontal joints are all just if not more susceptible. It also seems to take snow or really heavy rain for the water intrusion to become noticeable.

What’s kind of unbelievable is that we’ve done all of this work and the problem has persisted through all of it. The grandson of the original family said his mother had ongoing issues with leaking here. I went back and looked at the previous owners listing pictures over 8 years and the wallpaper never changed (same bad seem over all those years) so it must not have been too serious then, but when we bought the house there was a noticeable bulge in the ceiling. Nothing else was apparent that first summer even though the rain was really heavy that year, but looking back at my photos from the chimney tuckpointing there is a small wet spot under the eaves and streaks running down the brick from prior leaks even back then.

The first winter the chimney breast really started to show water damage. We replaced the full roof on this side and the flashing and it still leaked in the same way as before, if not worse. And we sealed the top of the chimney and it still leaks in the same way. Something keeps getting missed in all of these projects, and maybe the weak point is also a design flaw, such as the cricket.

[phil]

I wouldn't permanently cap the chimney because then you can't use it nor can it breathe as intended, but I suggested isolating the problem by temporarily putting a bucket over each one, then if it still leaks the issue is probably the flashing that skirts the chimney. that's just using a process of elimination for troubleshooting. since they put copper over the tops, that essentially did the same thing.

If it were me I'd want to keep my chimney functional as it is often removed or tampered with in old houses and many are loosing their rights to have a fireplace. If you can use it even now and then it might also warm the chimney up and help.

once you disable it then you might not be able to use it again. your laws may be different but for example if you pull a permit to repair a low heritage porch railing and replace it with one that meets present code you might be up against a wall if you then tried to restore it to the old height in a restoration attempt. The city may then say no! the newly installed railing meets code so you can't put one that doesn't meet the code now that you have updated it.
If you instead, just repaired the railing then that might be considered general maintenance and not require a permit, and since the low railing was always low like that it might be considered "grandfathered"
in a similar manor you might look into it and find that you do have the right to repair and maintain your roof but if you want to replace the roof they may want you to pull a permit for the new roof and that results in an inspection.

you can check but i have heard of a law in some areas that seemed to suggest you can replace a portion of your roof as maintenance so I wondered if perhaps one can avoid the permit by doing it in sections. I basically did that but not to avoid inspection, it just took a long time to do it myself.

Here I dont think you can build a fireplace and a chimney anymore, but old ones are grandfathered and they dont expect you to do a modification unless you are also doing some other large renovations and they get in your hair about all sorts of things that are unrelated. with laws changing around climate change some areas are banning fireplaces so in my opinion I'd want to keep it functional for as long as possible. It's a big part of the charm of your house.

If you didn't want to disturb the existing roofing maybe you could just install a wide counter flashing to get any water away from the edge of the chimney. maybe even a larger cricket to cover what's there.

they can make a sawcut with an angle grinder , stick the flashing up into that crack and grout it in or roll up lead sheet and stuff it into the gap to retain the tin. - or copper.

It might be sort of a "roof over a roof" in that area but you just need to solve the issue and get the water away from the chimney if that's where it's entering.
there are some good youtube videos on installing the flashing , stepflashing and counterflashing and normally that would be looked after during installation of the membrane or during installation of shingles , since yours has a tile roof maybe there is a different way to lay the flashing. a roofer experienced with that type of roofing might advise what is "normal" for that type of roof.

with a asphalt shingle roof the step flashing is put down in sequence with the roofing, in such way that each piece of stepflashing buts up against the chimney at the top edge, and the lower edge of it protrudes over the roofing. that gets any water back on top of the roofing if it tries to get into that gap between the roofing and the chimney. ( it gets redirected by the stepflashing)

there may also be some flashing that is bedded into the chimney itself just above the stepflashing to make sure water can't get between the stepflashing and the chimney.
on mine that upper flashing was a little rusty but intact so I left it alone. I removed the stepflashing , straightened and painted it and reinstalled it along with the roofing so it is spaced properly with the shingling. I installed a membrane before my roofing so I tucked the stepflashing under the membrane and put some sealant so where the membrane sits over the stepflasing it's glued down. I made a knife cut in the membrane where necessary to allow the bottom edge to get on top of my new roofing.

when you look at my roof you can see the bottom 1/2" or so of each piece of stepflashing as it protrudes onto the the roof deck. If I found this unappealing cosmetically I would then install a counterflashing which fits overtop. It isnt' stepped and it hides this and gives it a more finished look , it also helps keep most of the water away from that vulnerable area. It's sort of like a picture frame surrounding your chimney.

I think I would , in your case just go ahead and install a wide counter-flashing maybe 8" wide or so and bed the top edge of it into the chimney , into a sawcut so any water would then just run on top and away from the area. If you were to replace the roof then you could approach it differently but you might not want to open up what's there. why open a can of worms if it is avoidable?

if they you hired someone to fix the issue and they charged you for it but failed to complete the task that might be an issue for small claims court.
That may or may not be what you want do, You'd have to assess what you feel is right and consider your time. If you feel cheated another avenue might be to file a claim with the BBB and if the company is reputable they might want to resolve the issue as it can cost their accreditation ( if they have it ) if they don't resolve it.
our laws are different and I can't advise on the legalities. I'm not a lawyer or a roofer.

if the problem is water getting down into the flu I'd just cover the top of the pipes that stick up with a lid so rain can't go down there and make it high enough above the pipes so that it ins;t interfering with the smoke leaving. How about a copper roof that is held in place with some brackets , like maybe a strap around the chimney with some rods to hold it in place, strong enough to take the wind. a sheet metal guy could make that up.
I think if you use it for real fires any water that gets down there might just evaporate but when you stop using it or convert it to natural gas then it might not really run very warm. mine has some concrete caps that sit up there, not too attractive but they keep the rain out. If they weren't there then I'd have gallons of water going down the chimney with no way to leave. maybe these things were done originally and worked fine under your climate until global warming altered the weather patterns.. now we need to look to the future and that may mean more weird weather "events"

I definitely rather add a little roof of some sort to keep the rain from entering those 3 pipes. If the flu isn't safe for other reasons then maybe a gas fireplace would be cheaper than repair. It sounds like you dont really like having open fires that much so that may be your preference. I love being able to sit in from to the fire and when I have company and it's cold out it's a really cozy thing that everyone enjoys so much, especaally now that most others have destroyed theirs. I'm finding free wood easily since hardly anyone burns wood these days. as a kid we used to heat with wood and it was a big chore to go intot he woods to retrieve enough but that was in a remote area, now, here in the city, I just watch for when someone gets a tree taken down and I go pic it up free and easy. It supplements my heating bill although I burn natural gas as my main source.

[A.Fox]

Phil,

As always, thank you for all of the thoughts. What we did was definitely done with the idea of not preventing any future options such as returning to wood burning fires. And as far as we know the city has no issues with that as others in the neighborhood have even fully rebuilt their chimneys.



Ugh, anyway...the roofers who did the work on the tile roof 2 years ago just left. They do seem to be very upstanding people, and I understand that it is costing them to keep coming down to look at our roof from 2 hours away. This time they also sent a new second person to look at it who also had some additional insights (in fact I wish they had been there this time last year) This was their conclusions:

In short they think it is still the chimney that is causing the moisture intrusion. They took moisture readings this time on the chimney above the roof and were getting readings as high as 26%. It hasn't rained much in the last week (a little sprinkle today and 15 minutes of heavy rain on Monday) so it should not have just been reading a little surface moisture. They thought that either the mortar or the brick was taking in the water. In general the new roofers opinion was that the tuck pointing we had done 2 years ago looked very poor up close to the point that they wondered if any grinding had been done or if they had simply smeared new mortar over the old (That is actually really disheartening to hear). The thought was that the wrong mortar could have possibly been used as well.

Another possibility floated was that warm air from inside was condensing on the inside of the flu and causing the moisture problem. While we have dampers, they definitely do not create a perfect seal and one actually has a hole in it.

The bulging of the chimney near the top was pointed out as evidence of a long history of water intrusions, with freeze thaw causing the brick to expand outward over time. They recommended as a next step that we get at least a couple inspections from a masonry/chimney contractor. And I guess that is our best next option.

Sounds like we are potentially headed for thousands of more dollars in repairs doesn't it? Does sealing the brick and mortar sound like a bad idea in case it only traps the moisture in and wouldn't be so easily undone if a total rebuild is required? ...Not to get into the personal relationships part of this but it doesn't help when the SO says this is a perfect reason why we shouldn't have bought this house...

[Gothichome]

Gezzzzz, the leaky roof saga continues, sorry to hear that. I wouldn’t worry to much about the SO second guessing your old home purchase I get it often when progress doesn’t meet expectations or a large $ project needs doing. You both bought the home together with the desire to have a home you could be proud of. It’s easy to lose sight of the original vision.

[phil]

I'd be tempted to wrap a strap of steel around the whole chimney with a long bolt to tighten the band once it's up there. 4 uprights attached to a little temporary roof, maybe with a little overhang to keep the chimney sides dry from all but driving rain. it could sit a foot or so above the existing. could be made of non flammable materials in case you wanted to use the chimney it wouldn't stop the smoke from coming out. you could make the roof so it sheds a foot from the perimeter. you could use copper or something fancy or it could be very simple like a sheet of aluminum bent into the shape of a little roof.

while that may look a little temporary, and a little strange it would solve the issue for the short term and easily removable so no damage would result. I'm not sure about any code violations but you might check.

if what the contractors are telling you is true it should eliminate the chimney as the cause and it should dry and any moisture issues should stop. and then you'd have time to realize and fix it if the problem was with the roof or the flashing around the perimeter of the chimney.

I think I'd do that because then there is no rush and you can take your time to organize a mason if needed and if it isn't needed or if the roofer is just plain wrong then you aren't going to absorb the cost at least until you are ready.

you'd need the length and width dimensions and the strap could have a bolt to tighten the band once its up there and it might be a metal frame. That wouldn't be hard for any welder or fabricator, tinbasher, millwright, home handyman, see who you can find locally that could take a little project on..

to make up for you from a picture and a sketch of your idea. It would be a temporary fix but I know how frustrating a water infiltration issue is and how that can play upon your happiness. In my mind it wouldn't be destructive or really change the scope of the issue or the repair, it would just help for now and at some point in time it can be removed after a more permanent solution is found.

of course you can hire a mason to take the chimney apart but I think then you are talking thousands and maybe that's money well spent on the house, but what I'm suggesting might be, realistically, say $200 or so and I'd call it a temporary solution. Copper and fancy stuff would make it higher due to the cost of metal but you could think the details through.

I'm sure mine was repaired with hard cement and a cap was added with a concrete lid to keep rain out. It's not perfect but I'm not going looking for expense or trouble by trying to take it apart. When I'm home I can't see it anyway. As long as it isn't super ugly I don't see your neighbors really caring much and I wouldn't even bother with a permit. Any complaints, it can be removed.

[1918ColonialRevival]

I'd consider bringing in a chimney specialist to take a look and give their assessment. I would steer clear of general brickmasons or stonemasons for this job. Not knocking those trades at all, but I've observed that chimneys seem to be their own specialty.

[phil]

many may be used to working with modern materials. its kind of like hiring a drywall to do plaster work. They will know the concept but practice is another thing.

The part that sort of worried me was what if this advice by a roofer that the chimney is the issue is not correct, then he may be led down a rabbit hole, whereas some sort of temporary roof may isolate the problem for troubleshooting purposes. If it is any issue with the roof you dont want to hire a mason and then he's not responsible if it is the roof. My concern is that could be an expensive chain of events. Id at least be clear on who is responsible if there are leaks after the repairs. Flashing issues might be either if not discussed clearly. I'm sure either a roofer or a mason would understand and be able to work with and examine the step flashing but who is responsible if it leaks?

Just dont want him in a situation where the contractors are pointing fingers at each other saying it's the other guys responsibility to look after a warranty issue later. as long as the expectations are clear from the get go that should not happen.

[Lily left the valley]

{snip}Ugh, anyway...the roofers who did the work on the tile roof 2 years ago just left. They do seem to be very upstanding people, and I understand that it is costing them to keep coming down to look at our roof from 2 hours away. This time they also sent a new second person to look at it who also had some additional insights (in fact I wish they had been there this time last year) This was their conclusions:

In short they think it is still the chimney that is causing the moisture intrusion. They took moisture readings this time on the chimney above the roof and were getting readings as high as 26%. It hasn't rained much in the last week (a little sprinkle today and 15 minutes of heavy rain on Monday) so it should not have just been reading a little surface moisture. They thought that either the mortar or the brick was taking in the water. In general the new roofers opinion was that the tuck pointing we had done 2 years ago looked very poor up close to the point that they wondered if any grinding had been done or if they had simply smeared new mortar over the old (That is actually really disheartening to hear). The thought was that the wrong mortar could have possibly been used as well.

I attended an online presentation about an outdoor mural on brick two weeks ago. They pressure washed the surface before painting. I brought up the "did you age the brick?" question, and explained why. The building they worked on looked relatively new, but they were relatively inexperienced muralists, and this is often overlooked until something goes terribly wrong so I wanted to put the seed out there in case next time the building either might work on was older.