Yesterday I picked up this wee (18" X 18") radiator for the small office space off the living room. It's a good one because it's shallow enough to fit against the wall and still open a door completely.
With it came this panel (sorry, out of focus but you get the idea) that hides the plumbing at the bottom from view. It's supposed to be inserted under spring action with a small peg at either end.
The seller's son moved the radiator, and in his haste, damaged the steel panel. Most of it can be knocked back into shape, but I'm a little worried about the corner where the peg has been badly twisted:
Can this be bent back into shape or will it snap off? Is there a way to do it, under heat, maybe? I just want to be careful because it has to make a 90° bend and I'm not sure the metal will comply.
James, I see no issues with getting that dog eared corner back into shape. Don’t just try to bend it back with a pair of pliers in one go. Find your self some thing with a hard corner to use as a dolly, the edge of a vise as an example, slowly work the corner back into place by tapping the bend starting were the bend starts away from the corner. Work your way to the corner. Your goal is to coax it back to shape not beat into submission. If you hit it hard you will stretch the steel and it will never be right once that happens.
Thank you for your good instructions, Ron. I was able to get the peg back where it should be and reinstall the panel. Tomorrow I'll fine tune it so it lies flat against the radiator.
This radiator is a Sunrad brand but after doing a little poking around I've noticed that this type is still sold. They're meant to be recessed into the wall (so as not to take up floor space) with a reflective panel behind.
Follow up. Here it is with the steel panel straightened out, cleaned up, and primed. The spring clip on the right side wasn't catching so I tried to bend it upwards a little bit and snap! But, it seems to be holding okay with one clip and it's even with the front of the radiator. If I need to, I'll put a magnet in there to hold it.
It's details like this one that give me a weirdly inordinate amount of pleasure when they work out. I don't think I've ever seen one of these radiators with this steel panel still intact. On the other hand, I haven't been looking.
I realize I'm a little late here, but if you're looking to do any kind of metal restoration, having a good hammer and dolly set is a big help. I've got a set that I ordered from Eastwood several years ago. I believe Harbor Freight even had one a while back, but I'm not sure if they still carry it.
sounds like you did ok, cast isn't' very bendable but sheet metal is. on malleability this is a property of different metals, with sheet metal when you bend it it becomes work hardened. you can replicate that by bending a coat hanger and you will notice that after you bend it it becomes more brittle and harder to bend. If you heat it red hot then it allows the metal to sort of reform it structure. also metal like that you can bend like butter when it is red. I'm not saying you did wrong to just work it cold. I probably would have put a hollow pin over the little peg and used that as a tool but also used dolleys, punches with appropriate shapes or whatever I had on hand to make the metal go back.. If it had snapped or seemed weak after you could braise it which is just like solder only you use different flux, more heat and brazing rod. a propane or nap torch is probably sufficient as long as it isn't an item having a lot of mass. in which case you need more heat to get it hot enough.
you can experiment by just putting a coat hanger in your vice then heat it with your propane torch until its red hot , then bend it and not how easy it is to bend where it is red. That's handy when you when to bend something like 3/8 rod for a railing or something like that because it'll just naturally bend like butter if it is red hot and you can control where it bends by making that area hot. you can do the same with the metal cold but it gets so you need a die or a bending fixture to do as neat of a job with thicker stuff.
when it is something flat. the heat can cause buckling and it is hard to make metal flat once it "oilcans" there are techniques where you heat metal and chill it to shrink it back but try to avoid distorting flat panels. in many cases like with that hinge pin you can also ise JB weld. It won't fix everything but it can be handy if the stress on the part isn't' super high and if it doesn't get super hot. on occasion Ill fix stuff by drilling little holes and sewing wire between the parts then use JB weld as well to encapsulate the little repair. you then have a mechanical connection ( the wire) as well as the connection of the glue working together. sometimes tiny wire, tiny drill bits and you can sew parts together and make quite a strong and still small repair. sometimes the wire helps pull parts together while the glue sets up when clamping is awkward due to shape, clearance etc.
Im taking a course on plumbing and backflow prevention valves in particular, then I will be certified to inspect and service them. when you get further along with your design of the system you may find you need to add one and there are various types and styles but for example for makeup water you might need to install one and there is some expense. In essence backflow valves protect the public water system from backflow , that could be caused by you somehow putting enough pressure back into the system and feeding water into the public water system , or if they had a break of a pipe or did repairs out in the street and shut the water down then backflow from the building. ( back siphonage ) can occur. you can also use them to separate your potable water from a system like a boiler as you also cant' have a situation where when you were filling the system the system could push water into your run to a kitchen tap for example. toilets and washing machines have an air gap that by design dont allow flow back.
if you have an outside hose and you used it to fill a drum of water for example, lets say the drum was half filled with rainwater from your roof so you stuck your garden hose in to fill it. . then if the city did a water shutdown that can cause back siphonage from your drum into the public water system. then if they turn the water back on now you or a neighbor might get fed the rainwater through the tap . that's a cross connection and design of your system will need to incorporate appropriate protection to prevent a cross connection.
different situations require different valves and some need to be inspected or replaced on a schedule by someone with a ticket to do so. you dont want overkill but the one that fits the situation will be required by code and they can be expensive. If you get someone appropriate to help you with the design he will have such accreditation. There are big holes in my knowledge as I am not knowledgeable about the boiler system nor am I a certified plumber, steamfitter, engineer, or power engineer. normally systems like that are engineered and then the backflow valve may be chosen by the engineer that puts his stamp on the drawings.
there are different risk levels that will define what you need for example if your system has any chemicals added it may increase the severity thus increase the expense of this valving.
you can add them to outside taps as a measure of defense for only your outdoor hoses but once you have a steam system in your house I think you are going to require one near your service entrance, after the water meter before any outside taps. For now lets just say there are several different designs and the sizing needs to be appropriate . Unlikely you need a huge one. you can think about where you might put it as there are specs about clearance height from the floor and such. You dont want it in a location where it is freezing or underground where it can be flooded. some of them leak by design and leakage from some of the valves is an indication of failure so some require a drain for that to happen.
most of them are designed to be checked, some are maintained by replacement at intervals, it depends what you need to install and I can't quote on that.
when you think of old houses like mine, mine did't even have a pressure regulator and on backflow devices. my piping is a mix of new to very old. If you create this system you might need to have a plumbing inspection and they might be looking at such things as condition of other piping in your house. Hopefully you can get someone knowledgeable enough to help you design any changes in an appropriate way without getting into a sea of red tape. It might require certain licensing beyond just a plumbing ticket.
before I bought my house the neighborhood had an issue with the sewers. the old houses aren't protected from city sewer backflowing up into toilet bowls and things and some were overflowing and that caused damages. I had a friend that had that happen and he called 911 because his toilet started overflowing with city sewer.. In a new houses they might require a different type of valve to stop the city sewage from entering your house , sort of the opposite of the situation above.
cities are very fussy about these sorts of situations especially with anyone handling scary materials like a dental office , lab or a place dealing with any sort of chemical or biological material. As the severity increases so do the cost of these valves and the associated regulation for checking them. places like car washes that have pressurized systems need protection so they can't hook things up in some weird way and back-feed soap into the the water system for example. an auto service shop would require more than an office with just sinks and toilets. the design of your system might affect the total cost when it comes to keeping things within code. you might need a device to stop water hammer as this can also harm the backflow valve. I am learning lots but I am far from an expert who is really able to give sound advice. If you don't choose to do any inspection then it could pose liability issues. If you can completely separate the water you use from your heating system with no physical connection to the city plumbing system but you also may find that once you have a boiler existing on your premises, you also need a backflow preventer even with no city water plumbing connections to the system.
some have water systems like water collection from rooftops filling toilet tanks and such or used for irrigation. they will probably require a backflow preventer in that case simply because you then have a potable system and a non potable system and they could then say there is risk of someone causing an interconnection , for example using the city water to supplement irrigation. the city would then make it code for such a person to have a backflow preventer , probably near the service entrance for the city water even if the two systems are not connected physically.
larger buildings and manufacturing plants and such may require zones to be protected within the premises even with one at the service entrance. It depends what they do with the water. in some cases they are protecting other floors of an apartment from each other or they may have chemical tanks that need to be isolated from the sink in the bathroom for example. the weight of the water can be a factor as height causes backpressure due to gravity, so elevation comes into play as well.
Thanks, Phil. That was helpful in helping me understand what I'm in for when installing a boiler and heating system. I'm meeting with frustration trying to get someone reliable and with good credentials to do the installation so I've decided to postpone until I move down to Alabama permanently and focus on other projects in the meantime.
The Yale art gallery in New Haven Connecticut has this cast iron radiator in its exhibit. It had previously stood in the foyer of the building, circa 1880.
If you have any specific questions I will have the opportunity to talk to someone more qualified. No pint blowing things out of proportion just be aware that the design could affect the type of need for a backflow preventer and if you speak with someone with better qualifications onsite then that person might be better able to steer you to designs that require less. I just had a look at a dual backflow preventer in a sprinkler system and it had a tag to inspect yearly. those inspections could add up so if you are able to design things so you dont need regular inspections that might save an ongoing cost. Ill know a bit more than I do now in a week or two but my function wont be to design the systems ,I just need the license to perform these scheduled checks, about how each type functions and how to test them. the other stuff my course will cover but it isn't really my job to become, or replace that of a qualified plumber.
one thing worth noting is that your system might be sort of a dead end in other words if the water is not considered potable because it stays in the system it might change the requirements. adding a toilet tank to the end of the run could cause the water to be changed in that line and be considered less hazardous to the city water system. that is done in dead lines used for residential sprinklers but running hot water to a toilet doesn't make sense so that's half baked
if those lines are not rated for potable water then that becomes a type of hazard. If you use steam and not hot water then you are dealing with pressure vessels and that might complicate things more. pressure relief valves cant be allowed to stick closed for example so maybe there is a requirement for annual replacement. I dont think you need a backflow valve if it is only residential and if you can design the system so it is only potable water it might affect the type of piping. If you can get under the threshold where a backflow valve is required it will save cost but I cant' really advise with any degree of certainty. rusty water is probably not so much of a health issue but they will make you prevent against getting it in the water system. The higher the risk the more protection you need and the more money you'll have to spend on this. there are a lot of regulations so finding the way through might take some research or someone more qualified. you might ask questions at city hall perhaps they can offer some guidance. the plumbing inspector is probably the authority you need to make happy in the end. If your system was only potable water perhaps there is an advantage. I can see the inspections adding a continuous cost so if you can avoid that I'd trend in that direction if you can. I dont know if it ever freezes where you are, if it does and you leave the house then draining may be a better option than needing to use antifreeze as that would be a more severe hazard. The city wont want that stuff in the system. some of the backflow valves have a zone of reduced pressure. they are designed so that if backflow conditions develop they are more certain to not allow backflow. some of the others use check valves and things that could have the possibility of failure and you can't use them if the hazard is considered severe. any chemical will probably be a trigger. complexity of plumbing and the existence of pumps that could cause backpressure can also be triggers. If they think there is a possibility that changes could be made that are unauthorized then they will increase the potential so things like irrigation or factories fall under that as the piping is often moved and reconfigured. If you run in any lines check about the type of piping that you need. you don't want to run galvanized if the code wants black iron for example or maybe pex is ok if you can use it for hot water runs at fairly low pressure. you need more confirmation than I can offer. you might be able to read up a bit and make a list of questions for when you get time with someone with higher qualifications. Im interested too , the thought of using hot water perhaps combined with solar heat piping is interesting but I hadn't considered that this might also require backflow prevention especially if it isn't drained and then you need antifreeze. I'd like to learn more about heat pumps too. maybe it is possible to run some piping on the roof and use that hot water to create cheap AC? Ive thought of just using the nice cold city water but I am pretty sure that's a huge no to steal all the cold and send it down the drain
When I spoke to the boiler guy a second time (before he went AWOL a second time), we discussed the option of separate systems for potable and heating. He mentioned an on-demand boiler for the drinking/household use portion. (Its cost remains a mystery.)
Aside from the technical advantages or disadvantages of such a system, removing that big honkin' electric water heater and the resulting freed-up space in the tiny laundry room would be a big plus. It would make it possible to have the modern luxury of a dryer. The time-honored tradition of hanging laundry in the sleeping porch on rainy days would then become just a fond memory.
The Yale art gallery in New Haven Connecticut has this cast iron radiator in its exhibit. It had previously stood in the foyer of the building, circa 1880.
Gone are the days when a utilitarian object like a radiator was designed to be functional AND beautiful.
I've seen many antique rads with interesting surface embellishments. Once in awhile, on Old House Dreams, a fancier turn of the century house pops up, with the radiators that have a cabinet inside them for plate warming !
