Diamond pane sash construction details?

[KenN]

I have been searching but cannot find any information, so I am hoping someone here may have a reference.

Our house has 7 windows with diamond shaped lights. I have seen these called Tudor or cottage style windows, I m not sure what they are really called.

Most of them are in relatively good shape but a few will need repair or rebuilding. I am thinking about building some sashes in this style but it is not clear to me how some of the joints are constructed.

One joint I don’t understand is where the point of a diamond meets the square side of the sash. So you have two muntins coming together to form the point of the diamond, and this point joins to the straight side of the sash.

I have not been able to find any details of how this is done, and with my limited knowledge I am having trouble imagining a way to do this.

Another mystery is when a single angled muntin joins to the sash at a corner where the rail and stile meet. Is there an angled mortise now half in the rail and half in the stile?

Has anyone taken one of these apart?

[Casey]

Years ago I saw the following technique and made myself learn how to hand cut them. These could be adapted for corners other than 90 degrees. I think the joint into the sash frame could be done similarly. It would also be stabilized with some tiny brads/pins. Use stainless fasteners if you can get them, also use waterproof glue. And, yes, you can include the glass rabbet in this kind of joint.
https://walzcraft.com/resources/why-wal ... struction/

[KenN]

Thanks Casey, I am actually in the middle of a practice run making that mitered/lapped muntin joint that I started yesterday!

I ran into some complications (mistakes) yesterday, but I hope to finish today. This video was my source:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vvHcWEuyXk

Around 15:50 in the video he makes that joint.

[phil]

my house has a diamond pattern but it is merely leaded glass work, no muntins involved. The video looks good. I noticed he is working to a pencil line, thought perhaps if it was a repeated cut an adjustable stop might take out some of the visual discrepancies. ( just a clamp to butt he wood against.)
Rather than buying the fancy wide blade I often use two saw blades and between them I use washers made of coffee can lids or paper of various thicknesses. you just have to make sure that the set of the blades isn't interfering with one another. if there is a slight gap and it leaves a sliver of wood just chisel that out after. that way if I need to set that aside to use other blades and return to cutting the exact same gap I can keep the set with the washers together. Both blades need to be new or the same type or if you send them for sharpening send them as a pair to keep the size the same or there will be a step. Its the same as with dado blades but I find often they chip out more unless they are really sharp. this way you can make the cuts of exact width and adjust right down to thicknesses of paper to keep the fit within the tolerance you want. I like plastic coffee can lids because different makers are a bit different thickens and they dont tear out or get lost. easy to cut with scissors.
phil

[KenN]

Thanks for the tips Phil. I’m trying to avoid getting a table saw. I have a very small band saw (9”), and for these small cuts I’m ok with small hand saws.

I produced my test joint today, it’s not fully square and it has some gaps, but I’ll keep practicing.

[Casey]

XLNT !!

[phil]

if you mess up a little you can resort to stuff like shoving little wedges of wood wet with glue in or use epoxy, of course in a perfect world the parts are a nice snug fit every time. the more repetitious you can make these things the greater the accuracy usually. I'm a strong believer in making the tools you have work for you and your pic does look excellent. if you enjoy woodwork I'd watch for a sweet deal on an old unisaw or something comparable as long as you dont need the portability of a contractor saw but the best deals come when you least expect it. in my day job I fix a lot of metalworking and woodworking equipment so I've had my hands into a lot of different types of broken machines because that's what I do. I often see newer stuff from Taiwan or China failing long before they should. as an example I have a almost new milwaukee sliding compound miter right now. It is made in Taiwan hardly used maybe it's seen a year of 5 minutes a day type use. and it has a cheapo motor driver board that failed already. it grumbles when it starts. some little electronic part failed, an older one wouldn't need electronics. The miter saws are quite common but if you latch onto a decent old radial arm saw it will do anything than a miter saw just not so portable. I often see those for free just because they went out of favor. They have safety concerns for some. One would think milwalkee was reputable brand.. because it was. I see a lot of that sort of thing with all competing brands and at the same time some really old stuff just never seems to have an issue.

For myself at home, I'm only interested in older stuff but that doesn't always make sense for everyone. I'd say the sawstop ones are really nice if you go up to the commercial grade but even they have weak spots and they are not cheap. you can find stuff a lot cheaper used so personally I'm more apt to buy old used stuff and recondition it for my own personal fun. that way any money I spent doesn't depreciate and I've collected all I need that way.
there have been a lot of advancements in CNC and automation has improved speed and accuracy but I think that's more practical for commercial shops than home handymen because almost every project is a one off. I'm not a cabinetmaker by trade but I work with a lot of them and my dad was so I learn and ask as I go because it interests me and anything I do becomes some sort of learning experience. I'm more interested in my results and the feeling of accomplishment than speed or making money at home. If you make them three times from pine in preparation its time well spent if you are having fun. any bo-boos are par for the course. kind of like fishing that time gets added to the rest of your life a lot of the time it's about getting lost in an interesting project which is a good way to decompress. That's why some work with just hand tools, they enjoy the quiet methodical work.

there is some following for the old multi use tools. For example the shopsmith machines can perform a lot of functions built into one machine. they might not do anything as well as a single use machine but they seem to be nice quality and versatile. They might be fun to play with in a limited space. bandsaws are great where the noise is a concern and you can do a lot with them. they can be great for ripping stock to size or "resawing" too. If you search for "bandsaw box" you'll find some neat fun little project videos.

Phil