Window sash tooling

[KenN]

I thought I found a post here on sash tooling, but using search I cannot find it again, so I wanted to start this topic.

I am planning on building some sashes, and I wanted to match the sizes and styles of the existing sashes in the house, but it has basically been impossible to find a router bit set or a shaper cutter set that will produce something that is acceptable for a few reasons.

All of the sashes in the house are 1 3/8” thick, and have a nice ovolo profile. They all have full length tenons with pegs.

Most of the bit sets assume no tenon or a short tenon, like you are building a cabinet door with glue.

I only found one bit set that handled 1 3/8” thick (as a minimum) with a full tenon, but it assumed a skinny offset 1/4” tenon, and I want a 3/8” centered tenon. This set also produced an ugly flat, wide, truncated ogee profile when used at the minimum 1 3/8” thickness.

There are a lot of “ovolo” bits out there, but it took me a while to realize that there is a difference between older ovolo and what is sold as ovolo now. All of the bits I see have a quarter round with 2 flats. The quarter round is a 90 degree segment of a circle. Looking at the older shapes I now see either a 90 degree segment of an ellipse, or a less than 90 degree segment of a larger circle. This is what is needed to produce what I would call an attractive profile.

The British seem to still take their wooden windows seriously, and I was able to find one British company that had a bit with an elliptical ovolo that would be very close, but they don’t ship to the Americas.

I finally researched getting some custom bits made. I created some technical drawings of what I wanted and I ordered some bits that should arrive tomorrow. Hopefully these will give me what I am looking for.

I am just really surprised that what seems like a very common old window shape and dimensions does not have any off the shelf tooling to help in making a sash.

[Manalto]

Ken, welcome to the days of lost arts.

Interesting topic - keep us updated on your progress!

[phil]

Ill pass on a link this place is near me and they have been a family run business for a long time. I think the building they had was expropriated but they continue at a new location or so I was told.
If you go to this link and click on download catalog it will show some different profiles, I'm not sure if you can find the one you need in there but I think they might be a good source as they specialize in old moldings and they have a lot of old tooling. maybe they can make you knives if you need that but You should be able to find something appropriate without resorting to that. at least they can speak your language if you talk to them about old moldings.
http://www.tanex.com/products.html

it is also possible to grind your own blades with a dremil and some patience It requires some accuracy but basically you wet your sample with bluing then touch the blade to it and keep grinding off where the blue transfers until you get full contact along the profile. you might not need more than one blade but of course the higher the speed the more important balance is. it might be possible to modify a blade that fits closely. If one blade is slightly lower it wont cut so maybe you can just get one to fit exactly and intentionally set the others a bit lower then just dont run it too fast. You dont want that blade metal flying around.
we have a good knife shop here too. Ill post the link

these guys can handle making new ones. I know they are far from you but maybe if you call and mail order it isn't so bad. you may have a similar sharpening service locally but these guys are where I would send my work if I wanted a special blade made.
https://www.qualitysaw-knife.com/

[KenN]

Ken, welcome to the days of lost arts.

Interesting topic - keep us updated on your progress!

Well you know I spent a lot of time in the last year or so researching and understanding how sashes were made with hand tools. I even bought a bunch of tools, spent time rehabbing them, and practicing how to get the right result with them. I know with a lot of hard careful work I can produce what I am looking for, but then I hurt my back bad for the first time in my life (twice!), so I feel I can’t commit myself to doing it manually. Now I am going down the machine path and working through the problems there.

[phil]

I can appreciate handwork but I wouldn't attempt to make windows that way. Its not impossible but that would be a lot of work. I've made simple ones by just cutting the mortise and tenons on the tablesaw but that won't produce the profiles you want.
a router is an option, a shaper maybe even better. You might also find molding heads for the tablesaw. with those the blades just fit into a little slot so they would be easier to grind. the rotary bits would be more difficult.
you can see here what a molding head for a tablesaw looks like , it might not be appropriate for windows? not sure. Maybe more intended for moldings but you can see how fashioning one blade might work , if the others are set low and just kept as weights basically then just the one blade cuts. the reason is because it would be really hard to get three blades to match if you grind them by hand.
maybe some of the shaper blades will fit in a similar way.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174072516943


some molding profiles are easy to do with multiple passes but with windows the registration of your wood cuts and squareness and fit is important so I think its best if you can use a pair of bits that match so that the fit is near perfect.

I thought sears was gone. Its gone from Canada I think but maybe in the US , like this shaper head or similar ?
https://www.sears.com/magnate-m022l-sti ... ockType=G5

[KenN]

Thanks Phil. I recently purchased a small Grizzly shaper, with a router bit adapter.

The table saw router idea is interesting, but boy that looks pretty scary and dangerous.

[heartwood]

hey ken...
you may find that you'll need to get shaper knives custom made...I did a quick search for custom made cutter but only found these...I have a friend who makes custom sash and has his knives custom ground...let me know if you'd like me to find out the name of the company he deals with....he's in buffalo...

https://www.wmooreprofiles.com/shaper-t ... utter-sets
https://cggschmidt.net/cggwp/categories.php?cat=15

...jade

[KenN]

Thanks Jade.

I had W Moore bookmarked, Schmidt is new to me thanks.

I had two custom router bits made up, they should show up in the mail today. I hope to run some test pieces over the weekend.

I ordered from these folks:

https://orbittools.com/

[Casey]

From a preservation POV, it is acceptable to allow new replacements to vary subtly from the originals. The detail of the exact molding profile is one such variance.
I have been using antique planes whenever necessary to do precise window copies. There are always molding planes for sale on ebay.
Casey

[KenN]

I received the custom bits and have done some test runs. I finally have a shape that will work for me and that I think both fits the house and is attractive.

I will be doing some more practice runs, before I cut into the real wood I plan to use.