I figured my question might get buried on the "what I did at my house" thread so it is probably better to put this here
I am debating how to finish the bare wood on my attic windows. Please see my labeled photo... I think I will stain the actual window frames themselves (it looks like they were originally stained and shellacked) and paint the window sill, but what about the sash parts.... This is what I am thinking: A - Stain (the stained window frame will rub here so I think paint is ruled out) B - ???? C - Paint D- Paint
personally I'd show the wood inside as much as possible, leave the sills with just an oil finish or you can use shellac or poly , same with the inner facing parts of the windows. I would just paint the parts that meet the outside weather because it needs paint there or you'll have a continuous job maintaining it. while doing work Id just use the scraper, sandpaper and do an oil finish. You can always resort to paint at a later date. a few coats of oil may help by giving the protection it needs for now. It is the unpainting that takes a lot of time and you have it looking pretty good there. I do find I need to start, stop and restart these projects. It summer now so I want to focus on the larger projects. paint scraping can happen in bits and bites and it can easily become monotonous. you can remove the window and just put plywood in if the weather is not so good. that way you can work on the window on the bench with more comfort but of course sills and things like that must be done in place so summer is the time for that.
I'm not sure if that sill has any slope so it can shed water and it appears it could be a place where water collects but maybe you have enough overhang on the roof so it hasn't been a huge issue. It doesn't look too rotten and it would if the water collected there for the life of the place.
I think that area is sheltered by your roof so the sills just need a few coats of oil which you could do periodically and give them time between to soak and dry.
some of that is opinion though and some have no issues painting their woodwork in or prefer it that way so if it's your preference to have it painted , then make it so. so far as originality both are probably ok, I just love seeing as much of the wood as possible and I hate that my previous owners resorted to painting ll my trim. they painted the inner windows, the baseboards , the casings. It was all originally shellac. it created a huge job for me so I cringe when I see everyone else do it but it's probably mostly just my opinion and preference.
if it were me Id use a belt sander and about 100 grit and quickly bite through the hardened coating and stains on the sill, that will remove any paint remnants in about 5 minutes. then id use a scraper and sandpaper or maybe a pad sander to get near the edges. then I'd put oil on generously let it soak , and follow that with more coats using 300 wet or dry sandpaper and a dish of danish oil to dip in. keep the paper wet with oil and sort of scrub it in that will produce a nice finish. dry down after each application. that way it will look a bit cleaner. after than just wipe on and wipe off occasionally. You can still paint later if you decide to but if you use paint well that's harder to reverse. If I painted I'd use shellac first in case you want to ever remove the paint If you do like the look then you can always add shellac or poly to seal it in.
the poly wont' look like plastic if you use a satin finish. the oil will protect it ok without that. but one thing , if you like to put things on the sill. like plants you might see rings with just the oil especially iron things. they will stain the wood dark due to the combination of the iron and the wood which causes a black reaction. poly would stop that before it happens. If things are in direct sun and weather then dont use poly. It's no good outdoors. the sill might be sheltered enough for that not to happen here.
I agree with Phil. Once you apply paint it is difficult and a lot of work to “unpaint” and switch to natural.
Unsealed oil is not a long lasting solution. It will need to be reapplied at some interval depending on weather exposure. Think of a cedar roof. Every 3-5 years it needs to be oiled.
If you choose to go natural outside my recommendation would be to use a marine spar varnish. I would not use of shellac on the exterior anywhere. The durability is not meant for exposure.
In terms of colors - we like dark sashes. I am stripping my sashes. They will be painted black with white exterior trim (interior is white). A lot depends on your other windows, future plans, and what makes you smile.
Corsetière wrote:I figured my question might get buried on the "what I did at my house" thread so it is probably better to put this here
I am debating how to finish the bare wood on my attic windows. Please see my labeled photo... I think I will stain the actual window frames themselves (it looks like they were originally stained and shellacked) and paint the window sill, but what about the sash parts.... This is what I am thinking: A - Stain (the stained window frame will rub here so I think paint is ruled out) B - ???? C - Paint D- Paint
Thoughts? Experiences?
By stain do you mean like a sheer varnish that will show the grain of the wood or do you mean the kind of stain that looks similar to opaque paint, but penetrates the wood fibres ?
I think if you want to enjoy the wood grain then do that on the portion of the window that faces the interior, assuming you will also be using the same finish on the molding/moulding trim around the window.
I would not do this type of finish on the exterior "A" portion of the window. Have you considered how the rest of the windows on your house will be dealt with, paint wise, when you get there ?
I remember a couple of late 1800's type cottage houses in Toronto that had been stripped then completely varnished. This finish really did not fare well with years of UV exposure and the wood was faded and bleached where direct sun baked it, then darker in shaded areas.
* Also - am I interpretting correctly that "A" surface is the window that faces outside - or is "A" the surface that the window fits INTO ? If "A" is the surface the window fits into, then that should be whatever the interior finish is, with the exterior window painted or finished with opaque stain. "B" should be painted or opaque stained with exterior paint.
at the expense of rambling a few thoughts and points. If I'm off on this stuff just correct me.
I tried coating my outdoor exposed door sill with "Hellmans" spar varnish from home depot. Horrible results , it just peeled off. But there may be marine coatings that you might find from a marine boat service place. perhaps a marine tung oil. I believe good coatings exist, you wont' find them in the box store though. I can't verify with the water based coatings. I used some made by "bohme" it was a water based product, no smell. It lasted fairly well and at least didn't peel , needs a recoat now but it wasn't too bad. also sikkens makes some good deck coatings. the pigments block UV that destroys the wood. maybe some clear coatings do block UV but its hard to keep wood looking natural outdoors. repeat coatings tend to darken things up over time. the darkness isn't necessarily a bad thing. some choose a darker stian on decks because it blocks more UV and that helps the wood last. I find so many report weather they like different coatings after they have just applied them.. I think the results after time mean more. factory advertising is laden with BS. manufacturers of course leave off any negative results it's a conflict of interest for them to evaluate their own products.
I used the same helmans to do my windows, Just painted the outside faces. that worked fine. My take on it is it's ok for indoor but it is no good outdoors. I think it is poly basically. when we speak of linseed oil or shellac those are products defined by their composition but there are so many products labeled "varnish" or under some other name and manufacturers dont necessarily share the ingredients. I think the helman's contains poly but I'm no chemist.
shellac melts at a low temp. My attic gets hot enough to melt it , some have said it's ok to use as a sealer outdoors under a finish. maybe it depends on area and if it's light of dark paint or how thick, I'm not sure. it helps if you need to take paint off because it melts so your heat gun will melt the shellac before the paint and it'll come off easier than if the paint is stuck way down into the grain itself. If you are stripping your parts and see it has shellac under there and no stain Its a good bet that was original , but it could have been used as a sealer. some may be using stains to try to darken wood to make it look old. like your sill as an example it has darkened with time, sand it and it'll be lighter. If you only sand parts of it then you'll see a difference. You dont want that difference to show . so you can use stain or combine it with oil to make it look older, then it becomes a matter of preference what you like best.
Willa made a good point that what you do to one you do to the others, so you want it to be a manageable amount of work. sometimes people get carried away in a corner doing a project , maybe 1 door but you do want to be able to repeat what you do for consistency and while you might spend three weekends on a door and have fun with the project, later on you might not want to spend that much time on every door you have. I think that's why I like to just sand and put oil and move ahead with interior parts, because I can repeat that easily. If I tried to do it all at once I'd just go nuts from doing the same thing too long.
stains are pigments applied over wood so they do help block UV,but also they do usually block the grain to varying degrees. in some cases they can really pop the grain by enhancing parts of it more than others, i guess due to varying absorption rates. pine is an example. I think a lot of stains really pop the grin of pine. to me it reminds me of the 70's waterbeds and low cost production pine furniture and I find it a bit ugly, but it is what it is I guess. lots of the forum readers have southern pine and thats a different animal than the pine that is common here I think. the southern pine is harder. I think ours is more like spruce. good for cheap lumber, not a showy wood, I dont consider it for fine furniture or things like moldings or picture frames. some manufacturers can use factory coatings and processes to really change appearances and that's common because they want to use cheap wood and make it look like it's black walnut or something.
I like to use clear oil first, then if I want it a tad darker I use a tiny bit of stain in the oil after that but very little , only a few percent. some like to stain all their interior woodwork. I prefer it more natural but its a matter of preference. wipe on stains can look blotchy or they can enhance cracks and imperfections in sanding techniques but they vary , some are like paint, then there are dyes too. dyes can be sprayed or mixed with alcohol or other thinners. If you wipe on stain it will want o collect where the grain is absorbent. If you spray stain you have some control over the distribution of the pigments because it isn't' just related to absorption but maybe more to spray coverage. spraying parts like sills seems a bit excessive to me because of over-spray issues.
depending on the wood and the stain some are best applied so they soak in and you might not want a sealer or oil first. other wood types look blotchy when stained. It depends if it is an open grained wood or how consistent the grain is. wood that is wavy, like maple often is can look blotchy without sealer. often a wash of thinned shellac is used as a sealer. Some wood takes stain like a sponge and absorbs evenly. maybe mahogany is an example of that. I dont really like the look of stained fir usually but I guess it varies. Its probably sort of in between as so far as the absorption and evenness. you might hear peope talk about open or closed grain woods. there is something to the way the wood's grain structure is formed on a microscopic level and that varies with species. It affects absorption of stains.
stain can really only be removed by sanding so I consider it a more permanent coating than paint. ( unless its over another coating) but of course these things are really a matter of preference.
then there are toners. you can get lacquer toners in cans. Mohawk has a huge range of color options. with that you are applying the lacquer with pigments. this isn't really dependent on absorption , the pigments and the wood might be separated completely with other products like clear lacquer or maybe an oil or something. these aren't too hard to use but if you get runs it shows so you need to do very thin careful and even coats. lots of stuff like old radios some guitars use it with techniques where it is purposely applied with much variation, You can picture a guitar that is dark around the edges and fading to lighter wood near the center as an example. lacquer lends itself to spraying well , it dries fast, its fairly durable so factories like it and most of the 30's and 40's mass production furniture was done with lacquer because it's quick. only good indoors not for outdoors.
heavy sanding can affect the fit of the window. you can build up wood, like by by adding strips or consider different weather stripping products. Just be aware if you remove 1/16, like off the sill, that can create a gap and you might consider how you will close it if you do. Not a huge issue just good to be aware of.
Willa wrote: By stain do you mean like a sheer varnish that will show the grain of the wood or do you mean the kind of stain that looks similar to opaque paint, but penetrates the wood fibres ?
I think if you want to enjoy the wood grain then do that on the portion of the window that faces the interior, assuming you will also be using the same finish on the molding/moulding trim around the window.
I would not do this type of finish on the exterior "A" portion of the window. Have you considered how the rest of the windows on your house will be dealt with, paint wise, when you get there ?
I remember a couple of late 1800's type cottage houses in Toronto that had been stripped then completely varnished. This finish really did not fare well with years of UV exposure and the wood was faded and bleached where direct sun baked it, then darker in shaded areas.
* Also - am I interpretting correctly that "A" surface is the window that faces outside - or is "A" the surface that the window fits INTO ? If "A" is the surface the window fits into, then that should be whatever the interior finish is, with the exterior window painted or finished with opaque stain. "B" should be painted or opaque stained with exterior paint.
A is the sash that the window frame fits into. If I do a stain like I used on my front door and my staircase then finish with some variety of clear topcoat protector (tung oil? marine spar varnish?), I think I need to do the same finish for A too, because of the rubbing that will occur.
Unfortunately most of the windows in the house were replaced with vinyl at some point before my ownership. So I was thinking it would probably make sense to just try to match the attic window frames up with the front door, as the majority of the other windows are just white vinyl.
