Water-based or oil-based polyurethane for floors?

[awomanwithahammer]

I need the hive mind. I'm just about ready to get the floors refinished. Do I want water- or oil-based poly? Seems like I've read that the water-based is harder, but I've also heard that it can go milky. The oil-based is cheaper, but that's not really my motivation. I'm not doing the refinishing, by the way. (I did ask how much it would cost to let me help, though!)

[Willa]

Have you considered other options besides polyurethane ?

I seem to recall a couple of members who had excellent results with a non-poly product but the name is escaping me. This product is more expensive, gets applied then excess is buffed off. I keep thinking Forbo but that is linoleum products ? I did some googling and it was Rubio Monocoat.

I had oil based poly floors in the house I owned with my ex. It is hard wearing BUT - it cannot be touched up. The areas that get the greatest use will start to show wear, and there is no solution except to resand the entire floor. I am speaking from 10 years of experience, living in that house. When poly wears, it looks bad. We had a very experienced floor guy do the sanding, patching and poly application in an empty house. I would not have poly floors again.

I used amber shellac and wax on the floors in this house. This finish is more fragile, so it may not be what you are after ?

[Gothichome]

Over the many years of chatting old homes I think the general view is the Rubio. It’s easy to apply is very durable and it has the benefit of being repairable. Like Willa, I do our floors in shellac.

[awomanwithahammer]

I don't know if I have that choice. The refinisher I plan to hire uses Bona poly. This isn't going to be my home, but I might ask him about it. Is the Rubio readily available in the US?

[awomanwithahammer]

You guys are the best! I just emailed my refinisher and somewhat diffidently asked if he had ever used the Rubio and would he like to try it out on my floors, concluding that I didn't want to tell him how to do his job. I just got a very enthusiastic response saying that he has always wanted to try it and he'd see how quickly he can get some in. Thanks for the advice. I did see on the website that it can darken the wood and I'm OK with that. I was going to go with a natural color just to skip the stain step, but I don't mind a little color. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[1918ColonialRevival]

Another vote that poly doesn't look right in any house built before the 1950s.

As for not wanting to ruffle a contractor's feathers, remember - you are their boss and you are the one who tells them what you want used on the job. If they won't do it, show them the door! There are plenty of others out there who would want to have the job and who will do it to your specifications.

[awomanwithahammer]

I agree with you to a point--I don't want to force a contractor to use a product they're unfamiliar with if they're not on board with learning how to use it properly. I'd rather have someone who's enthusiastic about learning something new. And you'd think there would be plenty of others, but there's not really. I haven't used outside contractors often, but it's usually like pulling teeth to a) get someone to return a call; b) come out to look at the job; and c) actually submit a quote/estimate. And I really like this guy, so I don't want to come across as heavy-handed right at the beginning. If this turns out well, it could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship!

[Mick_VT]

Rubio is great stuff I have done two floors with it and I love it. the sheen is more matte - you can make it satin with an add on product, but I think it looks great without shining it up.... post some pics when it is done

[phil]

some differences I found,
poly has been used since the 30's they were made better after the war. most of our old houses did not have poly originally because it wasn't mainstream until the 50's. If you have a museum quality house I would prefer to keep that original. go oil or shellac.

with the water based it probably has a UV blocker so water based coatings may prevent the wood from darkening. I feel this is a property you want unless you are doing something like a modern teak floor and want that light shade. with poly they will go sort of amber and the wood darkens considerably from sunlight, it takes a few years.

oil based poly is easily re-coated. as you have let it cure it can be simply scuff sanded and re-coated.

re-coating water base is something I would research if you intend to use it. Maybe Willa was thrown by comments she had read that the water based poly cant' be re-coated without a full sanding? that is not the case with poly.

oil based poly is applied in sequence, each coat is put down no more than 12 hours after the previous, then the coats knit together through polymerization they never ever separate. If you recoat then you sand lightly to get a hook because the polymers have cured and so this gives it a hook. It will still stick fine.

poly cures by this polymerization its a chemical reaction, they are tough so cleaners acids etc even the solvent that poly is reduced with will not affec the floor once cured. It cannot be re thinned.

shellac and lacquer can be re- dissolved with alcohol so a new coating will meld with the first, if you spill a drink, or if it gets wet of humid it can wreck the finish. poly won't redissolve.

water based poly, since it is mixed with water, raises the grain. this happens after sanding and when you put the finish on this is not a good property. what is happening when the wood gets wet it "fluffs up" because the fibers are allowed to return to the position they want to. one common practice with refinishing furniture is to try to dampen the surface after sanding then to sand it again very lightly to minimize the effect. Oil base on the other hand does not have this issue. once coated the grain can't be raised since it is protected.

The commercial finishers would probably like using water based more because it has less VOC's . personally Id prefer to put up with the smell for a while than to make that my choice but I would like using water based better if it was my day to day job. so finishers may try to sway you because it's healthier for them to work with. but they will be gone and the life of your floors are what is important in my opinion .. I'd rather put up with the stink than use an inferior product.

water based goes on thin like water and they do several coats. for oil based 3 coats is recommended. It produces a hard shell that last for years. since your floors cant' be sanded too many times I prefer to protect what I have. you can do more coats if you want a more durable floor.

the nicest looking finishes are in the wood. such as oil, or french polishing. they penetrate the actual wood and work by filling the micro voids, so many coats of oil will be a below the surface finish. finishes like poly or shellac form a hard protective shell over the wood. when you look at the wood carefully under good light and walk around you will see how the ribbon of the grain shimmers. or looks different from different angles. the light is passing through that shell twice before it reaches your eye. any color in your above the wood finish will block reflective so I prefer not to use colored finshes or stains. I want to see into the grain , the ribbon the detail of the wood. Its very beautiful , why hide it?

If you go with oil poly you can first do danish oil so then you have both hardened the surface of the wood by applying a below the surface finish and then also you can have the protective shell overtop. this makes the floors wear longer and is my method of preference. one reason I like it is because it's the toughest coating aside from some of the commercial finishes. Epoxy or some of the commercial finishes might be tougher. some can be applied with a floor finisher and built up in layers. that might be common in a care home where they use wheelchairs or a store or hospital where it sees high use. The finishers come with those ride on machines and re coat the floor with acrylic the acrylic can be stripped and rebuilt using the machines and in some cases it can get thick.

The rubio isn't something I have used so I cant' really comment on it and I am unsure of it's properties of re-coating, if it allows the wood to darken or not and how hard it wears to things like a rock in your shoe or dog claws.. not sure if it leaves a hard shell to protect the floor or not. I'd definitely find out more about it and I might be a little scared if the finisher doesn't have experience using it. Mick liked it. I think his floor was quite dark after application and that's what Mick wanted.

I dont use stains except if I find spots I want a teeny bit darker then I do that by adding very small amounts of stain to my danish oil but I only use that to even things up from room to room. for example I used wood bleach and treated my kitchen floor to take the black nail marks out then it was lighter than the rest. so I did that to make the floors match and it worked well.

nail holes and cracks. I prefer to fill most of them . I fill any crack wider than a credit card and all the nail holes. I color the putty so you really dont; notice it and it leaves a smooth floor that can be damp mopped, without a lot of cracks..

with the poly you adjust the sheen on the last coat. I use clear gloss until that point to prevent any cloudiness. there is a product added to the product that causes the stuff to become more towards a mat finish and you can buy different ones. you can even just take the top of it off and let the white blush settle to the bottom then it will be gloss. I finish up with something between mat and gloss because if it is straight gloss it looks shinier and the shine highlights defects, all floors have defects , low spots etc. If you wan to go to a higher gloss getting the sanding just right is more important because like your wavy windows you can catch the reflection and see these imperfections in flatness.. but the shine is adjustable in the last coat. If my floors were uneven I'd go more towards mat. I work hard during my sanding and finish that up with hand scraping to produce a better finish. sanding tears out the soft parts of the grain, scraping does not so this is a technique to make the wood flatter prior to finishing.

there is something called burnishing as well. If you put a 3M pad on a vibrating floor finisher it sort of polishes the wood making it shiny, this may produce a pattern where hard parts of the grain sit higher than the rest , softer wood is torn out and it leaves an effect. we are only talking a very small amount maybe thousandths of an inch, but these techniques can effect the surface in different ways. doing this can also affect the adhesion of different applied finishes.

If you hire out a finisher I'd be careful. If they want to do things the fast way or if they seem at all inexperience I'd e scared because they can do a bad job and mess up your floors and if they do you really have no easy legal recourse. like with painting and drywall It becomes difficult to discuss finish standards on a residential level , they do have ways of standardizing and evaluating commercial jobs but if you had to take it to court you would have a hard time proving anything.. in court they may say you asked the man to paint it and he did and to say well you expected a higher level of finish then that can be difficult to quantify. so picking the right crew, checking references etc is extremely important. Id make sure he doesn';t have someone inexperienced running the sander. you might ask to meet anyone who will be working on your job before they make a deal then send some kids. often the foreman is experienced but the workers may not be and you find that out after you hired them. Your beautiful floors are at stake here.

I have worked a lot hard than most do to do a finish with all the steps of sanding, drum sander, edger, pad sander ,and hand scraping, doing coats of oil oil , sanding in the oil with 320 grit sandpaper. 3 or more coats of poly, color matched filling of nails, gaps and so on.
poly, when first applied balls on the sandpaper so I do light sanding between coats using sandpaper wet with paint thinner as a step between. this knocks off any dust pips and I wipe the floor up carefully with linen wet with solvent, so there is no dust hair etc trapped between coats. It would be extremely expensive to have a floor finisher go to this extent.

I think its a good idea to first think about how you want the floor to appear. for example an old bar might have an oiled floor that has a lot of wear and bruises, you can call it patina. a gymnasium probably has a smoother finish.. on some floors you can slide across the floor in your socks, other floors would give you splinters if you did that.

mine is more highly finished liek a gymnasium floor. but that isn't necessarily what you are after so when choosing the finish its good to first ask yourself what properties you prefer. a quick and dirty job can make or break the way your house presents so I prefer to go a bit nuts about it. but if it were a rental property I'd put laminate to protect it. The floor you might see in a pub is tough in that it has so many marks a few more dont' deter .. its a very personal decision.. cost and time is also a factor of course. one thing that bugs me is when people do a lousy job of sanding and then go with a high gloss and the reflection looks sort of plastic, or warbled if you study the reflections.
the easiest is oil or danish oil. wipe it on, rub it off, do that a few times and you're done. If you do that you can still use other methods later down the road. you could do that yourself easily.

one thing to not with colors. If you put a dark color on top of your wood and you scratch it with a rock in your shoe, youll see the whitish line where you removed the stain.
If you use oil only it will pop the grain and probably look dark enough. If you scratch that floor and put more oil it will have an effect of "erasing" the white like you created since no colorant is involved.

the oil fills the grain somewhat, as do the surface coatings such as poly or shellac. I love the look of putting a couple of coats of danish oil down, then just start applying more oil with a dish of the oil and dip the sandpaper in it and rub the floor, use 320 wet or dry , or maybe 220. cheap sandpaper would fall apart. wear gloves.
wipe off keep doing that. this produces the most beautiful finish but it isn't going to provide a tough shell.. its similar to that antique handrail that has seen many hands wear over it over time. To me this is the nicest looking finish you can get. french polish is beautiful in this way too but it isn't suitable for flooring and it is affected by humidity or spilled drinks and things. best saved for fine furniture and things.

what you do on the floor might impact your decision. If you dance in stellettos then you need a hard floor or one you dont; mind marking. If it's a kitchen you may want the clenliness of a poly wiothout many cracks and gaps so you can clean it properly. If you do a pianno finish in a kitchen and youll be dropping things off the counter you can expect some dents and marks to show, but the pub floor look might be better for that. If it's a formal dining room are you going to be sliding the chairs about or will you have a rug or pads on the chairs? if it is an entranceway maybe you walk in wiht sand on your shoes and stuff. If you have big dogs it will affect your decisions. some wear shoes in the house , some don't If you just wear socks all the time maybe shellac is hard enough. It's original and it lasted in many cases.. but it depends what you expect. are you ok redoing an oil coat every year or so? do you want to run the dampened swiffer around? will it bug you if it hooks into splinters if you do?

Now it's your personal preference what you do.. and it is a personal decision. don't be swayed by people who say this or that is best, all the finishes have different properties so choose the one with the properties YOU like best. Everyone has an opinion and you have to take the surroundings, time, expense etc into account to come to your best decision.


Phil

[awomanwithahammer]

Thank you, Phil. I've talked to this guy several times, and he's young, but not a kid. One of the reasons I've hired him is that his guys are all trained by him and have been with him for several years. Although he doesn't have experience with Rubio, I feel certain that he will do right by my floors. He said he used it once at a demo and plans to do plenty of research. He was thrilled to have someone willing to allow him to experiment.

I am going to trust everyone on here that has used this product. I know they wouldn't steer me wrong. As Willa said, the poly doesn't seem to hold up very well. I had the floors in my home done with poly about 10 years ago and there are several places that are already worn.