Removing tongue-in-groove floorboards?

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Manalto
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Removing tongue-in-groove floorboards?

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Kitchen floor demolition progresses, with some great news and some not-so-great news. First, the not-so-great - I called the pest control people and they found termite damage under the kitchen floor. Not surprising, especially in this part of the world, where Formosan termites abound. I suspected, from the spongy parts of the kitchen floor, that that might be the case. There had been a water leak in the pipe that runs from the upstairs bathroom down inside the wall and damp wood is of course an open invitation for those stinkin' wood gobblers. Fortunately, it's old damage and there is no termite activity now. It's reparable, so I proceeded to lift the flooring. The original kitchen floor was medium blue linoleum with lighter and darker blue streaks. On top of that was a tile (asbestos? rubber?), a medium-tone gray with multi-color confetti specks. On top of that was vinyl imitation cork and on top of that was the sleazy vinyl Dutch blue-and-white "tile" pattern that greeted me (with a toothless smile and the stub of a Pall Mall between its nicotine-stained fingers) when I first saw the house. All of that is now gone.

The really great news is that the original linoleum was laid on clear (there's only one knot in the whole room) pine tongue-in-groove boards. I can tell by the traffic pattern in the pantry, where the floor was apparently left bare, that these kitchen boards were never exposed to foot traffic. They're in beautiful condition, with a warm, reddish color. (still haven't figured out the problem with posting photos) I was able to remove the brittle old linoleum adhesive with a putty knife. Despite the current fashion, I don't care for wood floors in a kitchen. I cook a lot of meals. I occasionally spatter, drop and spill. Besides, that floor, if I can remove it without damage, will be perfect for the room above (the same size), the sleeping porch, whose floor was damaged years ago in a fire.

What is the best technique for removing tongue-in-groove flooring so it doesn't get damaged?

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Re: Removing tongue-in-groove floorboards?

Post by Mick_VT »

first you need to get a start - i.e remove one board - if you can cut the tongue with a sharp knife and pry it up you will be in business. If not you may need to destroy one.

If the boards are nailed through the tongue rather than face nailed, from then on you need to lift /pry the boards gently just a bit one at a time, enough to expose the nails between the board and joist. - then cut through them with sawzall or similar to release the board. If they are face nailed it is easier you can pry up the board a bit to lift the nails then pull them from above...
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Re: Removing tongue-in-groove floorboards?

Post by phil »

do you want ot remove the floor strictly to reclaim the wood or is it to access the joist for repairs? what's reclaimed flooring worth locally?

my kitchen had similar, never finished sold with Jute backed flooring ( battleship lyno) also similar layers overtop. the catch was the tar glue stuff they used. It took forever to get off with a hot iron, water and putty knife. when I got in there I also found plywood and some repairs that were done with narrower material that all ended in the same place.

I used reclaimed and wove it in, You couldnt' tell now but it was a ton of work. the nails got rusty and left black marks and I bleached and restained the floor as well as a lot of putty patching etc. You are right though it does get dented and damaged and its hard to keep a kitchen floor prestine.

just for fun, stick a business card in a floor crack and bend it over after you seat it as far down as it goes. this will measure the thickness of the wood above the tongue. as you say it's probably 1/3 of 3/4" or about 1/4 if so you can refinish.

one way out could be an epoxy finish or to hire a guy with a floor machine that does commercial floors like in stores, there are more durable finishes than even poly.

If you pull it up yea what Mick said. I usually just take a skil saw and cut one board twice and then its easy to remove even if its in the middle of the floor. it will be nailed on the grooved side the nails are driven at about a 45 degree angle from inside the groove then the next piece is added and so on.

keep a bottle of wood glue and masking tape handy. as soon as you crack something, put glue in the crack and tape it together , set it aside and you will save them. you might reak some of thre tabs off etc but just glue them back as you go. if you plan to do it later you will loose the splinters and the perfect fit. if you do it when you crack something it will be easy.

taking up the floor and renailing will allow you to keep the nails low enaough so the sander doesn't hit them.

it could be sanded despite not being finished just to make it all level so you dont; necessarily have full thickness just because it wasn't finished. they probably brought in sanders for the other parts of the house when laying it.

if you don't want to to open the whole can of worms you might do a floating floor with laminate, maybe one that looks like cork? It doesn't need nailing , wear is good, you will still have the floor. The availability of used flooring might be worth checking into. If you look for something being demo'd maybe you could pull some other floor? maybe it would be easier to access and sister floor joist with the floor removed? that might save having to work in the dirt if its a crawl space.

if the floor was moved to another room you'd have slight differences in height and you would probably want to rent the drum sander, edger pad sander and then finish the floor. figure about 1000 to refinish for materials, your wood finish, sandpaper rental etc. and you could probably hire out if you choose. the wood hasn't seen sunlight but I bet it will be slightly darkened near the surface so to to get color uniformity you might have to take off about 1-2 mm. if they have sanded then it might be different thicknesses throughout. maybe numbering them and trying to keep the sequence could have benefit?

a little trick I used, when re-laying flooring. you can add some tarpaper strips under the ones that want to sit lower than surrounding, to try to keep the surface level despite differing stock thicknesses. I'd lay a full sheet before you begin , then use some strips as shims to reduce sanding. The machine will hog off material fast but your floors can only be sanded a little. once the tab that is above the tongue is too thin it can break off if you go too thin so don't be under the impression the floor is 3/4 so there is lots because you only have about 1/8th of material you can sand before you have issues with cracking.

that's why Id do the business card trick in several places and try to get an idea if you wan to to do this. If you go shopping, take a caliper or something to check thickness and observe how thick it is before you buy stuff that's too thin.

If you try to use different flooring from different places keep in mind the width might have slight differences. that won't matter if you are laying entire strips of the same material but it will screw up your ability to keep it tight if you have materials of varying width if you mix the widths and butt join them. I have some where my replacement material was a bit narrower but I couldn't change the gap spacing since the existing floor could not be moved tighter. so check the width too if you go looking at materials. most near me seems to be 3 1/4" x 3/4 but there may be some shrinkage and variances.

If you really look closely with a straight edge youll probably find that the joist do not align perfectly It may have shiplap laid on the /45 on top of the joist then the flooring. there wil of course be areas that are higher and lower and the drum sander will flatten everything out but in the process of that it is making some of the strips thinner than others just by nature of how it all works. when you re-lay it you will be in a different place with a different flatness and I think you'll see height variances because of this , the sander will fix it , if there is material.

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Re: Removing tongue-in-groove floorboards?

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phil wrote:do you want ot remove the floor strictly to reclaim the wood or is it to access the joist for repairs? what's reclaimed flooring worth locally?



For both reasons. Don't know the price of reclaimed flooring in these here parts; I'm hoping with the wood from the room and about 15 extra 6' boards from the pantry that I'll have enough, even accounting for breakage.

As I said above, I want to use the floor in the room directly above the kitchen (the sleeping porch), for a few reasons:
1. The floor in the sleeping porch was damaged by fire
2. The rooms are the same size
3. The wood is original to the house
4. The original sleeping porch was gray painted boards and the windows were only screens; the floor slopes slightly and there is a "vent" at the low end for rain to drain away. Over the years, all my neighbors with sleeping porches replaced the screens with double-hung windows to get four-season use out of their rooms. I plan to do the same. (My PO just put up walls and left only two, instead of six, windows; I'll restore it so the room has six windows.) The natural, unfinished wood floor from the kitchen, with its reddish patina will be beautiful in that room. It will be possible to maintain it when the floor is protected from the elements by windows.


phil wrote:my kitchen had similar, never finished sold with Jute backed flooring ( battleship lyno) also similar layers overtop. the catch was the tar glue stuff they used. It took forever to get off with a hot iron, water and putty knife.


I scraped off about 80% of the brittle old adhesive in about an hour with a putty knife, cold and dry. I sat in a chair. Around the edges it's a little thicker and tougher, but I was surprised at how easily and cleanly the adhesive came off.


phil wrote:just for fun, stick a business card in a floor crack and bend it over after you seat it as far down as it goes. this will measure the thickness of the wood above the tongue. as you say it's probably 1/3 of 3/4" or about 1/4 if so you can refinish.



The adhesive that got down inside the cracks makes it impossible to stick a business card in. However, at the threshold where the termite damage is, I lifted a board and, as you say, it's 3/4" thick (and ~3 3/8" wide, including the tongue). It doesn't need refinishing. It's a beautiful reddish tone just after scraping with a putty knife. I think a good buffing with steel wool and paste-wax will bring out the luster and knock off the rest of the adhesive residue.


phil wrote:If you pull it up yea what Mick said. I usually just take a skil saw and cut one board twice and then its easy to remove even if its in the middle of the floor. it will be nailed on the grooved side the nails are driven at about a 45 degree angle from inside the groove then the next piece is added and so on.



My neighbor has the same house and has pulled up the floor. He has prepared me to expect a tough job. The nails, according to him, are larger than you'd expect and there are a lot of them.

I'm looking at oscillating multi-tools for the job because right now I don't have a tool that can do it.

phil wrote:...as soon as you crack something, put glue in the crack and tape it together , set it aside and you will save them. you might reak some of thre tabs off etc but just glue them back as you go. if you plan to do it later you will loose the splinters and the perfect fit. if you do it when you crack something it will be easy.



Thanks for that tip; makes good sense.

Mick_VT wrote:If the boards are nailed through the tongue rather than face nailed...


They are.

Mick_VT wrote:... - then cut through them with sawzall or similar...


Any recommendations for the best tool for the job? Is an oscillating multi-tool (Fein?) the way to go? Too weak? It will have to cut through dozens of tough old nails. I'm a little worried about the kick from a Sawzall doing damage.

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Re: Removing tongue-in-groove floorboards?

Post by TexasRed »

An oscillating multi-purpose tool is what was used to remove our T&G porch decking. (Same concept, right?!). It was painfully slow and we went through a LOT of blades but we were able to save almost every board.

As much as we all love our old original wood, be warned it can be dry and tend to break/split on the tongue side. Phil’s suggestion to glue splits when they happen is fantastic - wish we had thought to do that.

You will probably have to cut your first board out as Mick mentioned but after that just take your time and buy plenty of blades for cutting metal before you start.

Good Luck. Sounds like a wonderful way to reuse the flooring.
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Re: Removing tongue-in-groove floorboards?

Post by Casey »

get a good sawzall and a lot of 9"metal-cutting blades, pry each board up with a thin prybar just enough to get the saw blade under, cut each nail. You can get the boards out with next to no damage. Number each one so they go down in the same order and you should not need to sand.
We went through this process in two large rooms in Morven Park (the Gov. Westmoreland Davis mansion in Leesburg VA) so that the floor joists could be sistered. There was plaster below which was judged more important to save that the slight disruption to the flooring. The floors went back down perfectly.

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Re: Removing tongue-in-groove floorboards?

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Thanks, Tex and Casey. I'm encouraged that it can be done, despite my lack of experience. Phil said a while ago (something to the effect of) that, with many jobs, you can make up for your lack of experience with time - you just go more slowly. That's good advice and has stuck with me. Having been an apartment dweller for most of my life, I realize I sometimes ask the most basic questions - things that are obvious to others. I'm enjoying the journey though. Also, if I had hired the guy I was thinking of to rip up the floor, I have no doubt he would have destroyed all that nice wood, which would really be a shame. I'm going to try to resolve my problem with posting photos. I wish you could see this humble pine floor that hasn't seen the light of day for 100 years. It's definitely worth saving.

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Re: Removing tongue-in-groove floorboards?

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I needed some because mine had plywood etc. I have an old house parts place that is linked with some destruction crews, they buy it and resell . the stuff I got was puled up with the nails I assume just with pry bars so I had to allow some for waste. also you might not want short pieces.

couple more tips
if you need to cut a board without access I use a router with a 1/4" bit use a piece of square plywood so you can set it down parallel to the cracks and use that to kneel on while cutting the board with the router. do not overrun the cut. finish the ends by hand with a chisel and hammer. You may not need this if you are layoug new but if you want o take one out in the middle of the floor you can.

in some spots I put a little PL glue I wouldn't use it much but it can help hold things in some instances lie if you replaced a small piece or had a bit of the tab missing. you can also face nail if you need to. the tarpaper will make it not stick to the subfloor.

if you need to get a piece into the middle of the floor you can. break the lower part of the groove off, put glue on it then tuck it under where it should fit then you can drop the board in and the glue will hold the trapped part of the groove side. use a couple of face nails to hold it until dry, just set them in.

im not sure if you need to sand. Youll have ot see how well they line up and how fussy you are about not getting your socks hooked on splinters etc. at least its an option if it's thick enough.

if you use putty I use the water based stuff. if the floor ever does get soaked itll turn back to wet putty and wont' cause it to bind up. I get the powdres from Mohawk finishing supply to doctor the putty color. getting the color just exactly right is worth the time taken to do some tests with the finish on. mismatched putty colors look horrible especially if its spread all over.

holes , like from pipes and things. try to cut them right out instead of trying to make invisible plugs , its easier and shows less.

try to stagger your joints so no two line up. it doesn't look nice try to keep them random.

if you cut the ends of the flooring to shorten them. I find they look better if you just set your saw a teeny bit out of square so that the top surface is just a teeny bit longer than the underside. then when you do your butt joints they appear to fit tighter. gaps in end joints show, You want some gaps between the boards. my rule of thumb is that if I can get a credit card in it I fill but dont' fill every crack. you have higher humidity. just be aware if you make the floor real tight with dry dry wood and then humidity goes up it can buckle.

don't run the boards right to the wall. there should be a gap at the ends, the baseboards and quarter round will hide the gap. wood stretches and shrinks less with the grain but I guess there can be a tiny bit on long boards.

I just replace the 1/4 round with new fir ones.

pros use a special flooring nailer , it is actuated with a hammer, I think so that when you drive the nail you hit the thing and it tightens the floor up while driving the nail. I just use a scrap of flooring and hammer on that then nail with a hammer. you might take a punch after you drive each nail to seat it , try to make sure the heads arent' too close to the surface, you will hit them if you do sand. look for a punch or bit of steel rod about the diameter of the nail heads to use as a nail set, use a small one to set finishing nails if you face nail.

You might need ot scrape each piece to get the junk out from around the tongue if it has stuff imbeded.

If you wanto fill cracks. put masking tape either side. press it down with your putty knife and fi the crack. as you slide your knife along you can press the putty right down into the crack and the putty will sort of form a hump between the two pieces of tape. dont' level it out. pull the tape off while the putty is wet.

when it dries it shrinks and the "hump" stops it from being able to shrink below the surface and so it doesn't need a second fill. You can sand then or if it is a finished floor you can put tape either side of the filler and draw a card scraper along the length of the crack. the tape will prevent you scratching the floor and allow you to remove any excess without sanding.

tiny nail holes can be filled with wax crayons but it has its limits.

you can choose if you wan tot fill it and poly and make like the sort of floor you can slide across in your socks and clean with "swiffer" or if you'd like a more rustic floor that might suit you , you have choices on the level of finishing you'd like , or paint. gaps aren't bad but you can work to your desired finish. you can make the whole floor smooth like glass if you want to but not without sanding.

sometimees more rusting looking floors with some dents and gaps in the boards can look nice. I sanded and finished all mine to a high level of flatness with really no serious gaps. I spent hours with the filling and took this to a high level then at east three coats of poly to make them hard wearing. I like to do it that way but I still admire the floor you might see in an old english pub because you really cant' damage it that as easily. If its a finish like a piano you might be asking people to take their shoes off. depends what you like You can make them perfect like laminate if you like lol..

I'm not careful with taking my shoes off and everything and my poly is lasting really well. I do three coats of oil to pop the grain and then the three of poly to create a hard shell. I did my stairs with danish oil they are nice too. Mick seemed happy with the stuff he buffs in. I don't like painting wood over but some like it and it might be original, sure.

mine are fir, drop a can of soup and it dents and the poly bends into the dent. the poly doesn't scuff and scratch easily but it does dent still.
your pine might be harder.

the surface might actually be hardened from age if you don't sand that off it might wear better in some ways. Id just try to do your best at laying it and see how you feel after.

aside from what you have you might need some material for waste. I allow about 20% but the stuff I got was pulled up with a pry bar. You could do it more delicately by cutting nails. look for a blade with 32 teeth per inch or so, not one for wood.

if you take a scrap and cut long wedge shaped strips on the tablesaw that are about 3/4 and 1/16" on one edge and taper to nothing. You can use these strips instead of filler. wet them with glue and drive them in anywhere you have too big of a gap. wipe off any glue that oozes. when dry use a hand plane or card scraper to remove any sticking out. don't use filler to hide huge gaps, use wood. this is fast if you prepare a bunch of strips first.

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