Some time ago, I was putting a door (in a rental apt.) where many had once been and none had recently been. Looking at the frame jambs I could see both left-hand and right-hand doors had been hung; both swinging into and out of the room. Not only that but, apparently, some of these doors were hung with two hinges and some with three.
The situation got me to wondering: why mortise the door jambs? Other than having or not having a few mm of a gap, noticeable only on the in-swing side of the door, what's the point of having hinge leaves sit flush with the jamb?
Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
~James
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
-
Seabornman
- Settling in
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:45 am
Re: Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
Other than the aesthetics, I believe a properly mortised hinge tends to be much stronger and stay in position, judging by past doors that I have removed screws from hinges and the door stays in place. Also could be more secure. Non-mortised hinges are only hanging from the screws.
Re: Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
Seabornman wrote:Other than the aesthetics, I believe a properly mortised hinge tends to be much stronger and stay in position, judging by past doors that I have removed screws from hinges and the door stays in place. Also could be more secure. Non-mortised hinges are only hanging from the screws.
This - the wood supports the hinge from the underside... but there are hinges which are designed to be used without mortising for lighter weight work
Edit: like these
- Screen Shot 2018-02-08 at 6.43.41 PM.png (663.23 KiB) Viewed 1187 times
Mick...
Re: Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
And also...how about...if you don't 'inset' the hinge, when the door is closed you will see it. Both the door and the jamb must be inset to let the plate 'fade away' into them, or it will look sort of....dumb, IMO. '
The gap between door & jamb would have to be wide enough to accomodate both plates...kind of a big gap....
Just something I've noticed...ask me how, ha ha!
Trial and error....
The gap between door & jamb would have to be wide enough to accomodate both plates...kind of a big gap....
Just something I've noticed...ask me how, ha ha!
Trial and error....Re: Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
Seabornman wrote:Other than the aesthetics, I believe a properly mortised hinge tends to be much stronger and stay in position, judging by past doors that I have removed screws from hinges and the door stays in place. Also could be more secure. Non-mortised hinges are only hanging from the screws.
I think "much stronger" might be hyperbole. I do know a tight mortise will resist some small load of the lateral and downward forces of the door's weight should the screw not be completely tight against the hinge leaf. But we all know a tight mortise isn't vital given how uncommon they can be.
The only times I've experienced any particular resistance, from an unscrewed hinge, has been when multiple layers of paint held the hinge in place and when a thick, unpainted hinge leaf was being held by a tight mortise pocket of wood that had shrunk over time. But the resistance I encountered would not make the screws any less required; I think all hinges are "only hanging from the screws" (acknowledging that the weight of the door isn't exactly "hanging from the screws" unless the hinge isn't tight against the jamb).
~James
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Re: Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
Mick_VT wrote:Seabornman wrote:Other than the aesthetics, I believe a properly mortised hinge tends to be much stronger and stay in position, judging by past doors that I have removed screws from hinges and the door stays in place. Also could be more secure. Non-mortised hinges are only hanging from the screws.
This - the wood supports the hinge from the underside... but there are hinges which are designed to be used without mortising for lighter weight work
I considered the existence of these but wondered how much longer they might have to be to accomodate more screws, if they were for heavier weights. The recommended use of these imply a heavier weight would require a mortise. But, perhaps, that is because the leaves are not solid but close to fit flush within each half. I think the thickness of the metal that creates the hinge pin slot is also a consideration. A thicker guage of metal would create a larger clearance for the hinge leaves. That seems to indicate the matter of concern is the thickness of the hinge leaves when closed, the gap they would otherwise make, and not any support function of the mortise pocket.
~James
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Re: Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
Olson185 wrote:
I think "much stronger" might be hyperbole. I do know a tight mortise will resist some small load of the lateral and downward forces of the door's weight should the screw not be completely tight against the hinge leaf. But we all know a tight mortise isn't vital given how uncommon they can be.
wood in compression on the end grain is remarkably strong, I dint think you are giving it the credit it deserves. You can do a simple experiment with this, try twisting off a door hinge which is not morticed vs one that is - my bet is you will find a substantial difference.
I don't believe this is the only reason for mortising, but I do think it is the primary reason - otherwise I believe the mortise would have died out many years ago, especially in commercial construction
Mick...
Re: Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
GibsonGM wrote:And also...how about...if you don't 'inset' the hinge, when the door is closed you will see it. Both the door and the jamb must be inset to let the plate 'fade away' into them, or it will look sort of....dumb, IMO. '
The gap between door & jamb would have to be wide enough to accomodate both plates...kind of a big gap....
Just something I've noticed...ask me how, ha ha!
"...if you don't 'inset' the hinge, when the door is closed you will see it." Huh? When the door is closed one will either see the hinge pin or the door stop trim. With or without a mortise, the only time the hinge leaves can be seen is if the door is open. The only "it" one would see is the additional 1/4" gap of the unmortised hinge. But that additional 1/4" (for a total of 5/16"-7/16") might make a difference.
That's one thing of which I'm not sure. A mortised hinge usually leaves an apparent 1/16"-3/16" gap between the door and jamb. This gap usually appears larger than it is because of the radius of the door edge. Hinge leaves tend to be about 1/8" thick each; which when closed will be 1/4" thick.
The gap at the top of the door can vary quite a bit; as much as the thickness of the door stop trim. The gap on the latch side should allow at least half of the 3/8"-1/2" latch to project into the latch pocket of the jamb; leaving a maximum gap of about 3/16"-1/4"; less might be better.
So, if the gap on the latch side is about 3/16"-4/16" (we're comparing 16ths here) would a gap on the hinge side of about 5/16"-7/16" be noticeable? I think it might; expecially if the latch side gap is fairly small.
~James
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Re: Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
Mick_VT wrote:Olson185 wrote:
I think "much stronger" might be hyperbole. I do know a tight mortise will resist some small load of the lateral and downward forces of the door's weight should the screw not be completely tight against the hinge leaf. But we all know a tight mortise isn't vital given how uncommon they can be.
wood in compression on the end grain is remarkably strong, I dint think you are giving it the credit it deserves. You can do a simple experiment with this, try twisting off a door hinge which is not morticed vs one that is - my bet is you will find a substantial difference.
I don't believe this is the only reason for mortising, but I do think it is the primary reason - otherwise I believe the mortise would have died out many years ago, especially in commercial construction
I'm referring to the often uncommon incidence of having the bottom edge of the hinge leaf actually touching the end grain presented by the mortise. If there's a gap between the bottom edge of the hinge leaf and the bottom of the mortise pocket then, obviously, the mortise pocket isn't providing any resistance against the downward force of the weight of the door.
When might this happen? Installing a door using 3" hinges where the previous one had 4" hinges. Would I prefer to reuse the existing holes or drill new holes to make sure the hinge rests on the endgrain? Would I prefer to change the mortise locations on the door or the door frame? What happens if I make the mortises on the door frame 1/8" too low compared to the mortise locations on the door? Do I replace the jamb and try again? The point is, there are many reasons why the hinge might not rest against the end grain. In those cases, does it matter?
Remember, in my original question I was presented with a door frame that had been "mortised-to-death" and, while rare, it begged the question, "Was all that mortising really worth it?". I think it might be a matter of "it's best if...." rather than "it's vitally important that...".
~James
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Re: Why Mortise An Interior Door Hinge?
Olson185 wrote:
When might this happen? Installing a door using 3" hinges where the previous one had 4" hinges. Would I prefer to reuse the existing holes or drill new holes to make sure the hinge rests on the endgrain? Would I prefer to change the mortise locations on the door or the door frame? What happens if I make the mortises on the door frame 1/8" too low compared to the mortise locations on the door? Do I replace the jamb and try again? The point is, there are many reasons why the hinge might not rest against the end grain. In those cases, does it matter?
Probably not too much - I have some doors like that from the previous owners, the hinges tend to come loose on some, and I could imagine over time the screw holes will get worn. A lot will depend on the weight of the door. If changing hinges on a door to a different size the correct way to go about it is to patch the mortise and start again. It's a pretty easy if you have reasonable carpentry skills
Mick...