Plaster Problems

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accolay
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Plaster Problems

Post by accolay »

I wanted to voice my internal disgust at the probability that I rip out the remaining plaster in the house I'm renovating.

Background. An old small house. Built cheaply with poor craftsmanship and material (I can give more examples but I'd digress from plaster) The roof was neglected in history to a point that it leaked. This ruined and damaged two ceilings and a few walls. The ceilings I removed were further ruined by covering up with acoustic tiles- they hammered 1x4 wood strips to accept the tiles = more cracks/broken keys added to the crumbling areas. Other plaster areas were ruined by hammering in that wood paneling from the 50s or 60s. I did take out the bathroom plaster because the entire wall moved when I pushed on it-the wall had been constructed with the studs on their sides...? = no structural integrity. Adding to the con of saving the plaster is that a not well applied texture was added to the living/dining walls exacerbated by cracks/water damage around the chimney area "repaired" with inferior product and skill.

Anyway. Plaster. I have only the living room/dining room ceilings, the walls there and the walls in the bedroom. The finish layer is coming off in a few places. Or bulging where I suspect there is some water damage. The biggest problem is that looking through the exposed walls, I can see that during construction it looks like the plasterers didn't push enough plaster through the lath to form good enough keys. I would normally opt for repair but I don't think it's worth it due to the poor workmanship.

Aargh!

Greenwood
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Re: Plaster Problems

Post by Greenwood »

It's a tough call, on whether to remove the remaining plaster despite it being 'salvageable'.

Having just re-read my George Nash book, I will cite him as he discusses the different approaches to fixing old houses,

I confess my sympathies lie somewhere between liberal preservation and conservative renovation. Except for those few houses in which a plaster ceiling is distinguished by ornamental medallions and cornice castings of historical value, which are worthy of professional restoration, my feeling about old (unsound) plaster, for example, is to replace it rather than repair it. And, given the cost of traditional wet-wall plastering, I'm willing to accept drywall as a substitute.

accolay
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Re: Plaster Problems

Post by accolay »

Sigh....

The biggest pro for not removing is that... I wont have to remove it. I don't want to take off the woodwork methodically and carefully removing nails and label. I don't want to deal with the actual mess of removing the plaster and lath. And especially, I don't want to deal with any other problems I'll find underneath. I want to paint it and forget it.

Already have to repair some exterior wall studs/framing that had fungus growing on them at some point and crumble when you touch.

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Willa
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Re: Plaster Problems

Post by Willa »

What if you take off the plaster but leave the lath, and apply thin 1/4" or 3/8" drywall that won't bury the woodwork's profile ?

Loose or unattached plaster IS a real drag to deal with. I have spent many hours attempting to remediate terrible plaster, and it is doable, sort of, but very labour intensive. However - having the crumbling plaster off gives you a chance to deal with upgrading any electrical issues.

1918ColonialRevival
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Re: Plaster Problems

Post by 1918ColonialRevival »

If the plaster wasn't done right to begin with, there's not a lot you can do. That said, you can always re-plaster. After you've done it a few times, it's not that bad.

Kashka-Kat
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Re: Plaster Problems

Post by Kashka-Kat »

You dont have to take off the wood-work - you might be able to just use the drywall patch method .....nless the plaster is so poorly done and disintegrated behind the trim that it wouldnt make sense to leave it there. Generally the plaster will be more firm closer to the trim because its been held tighter to the lathe there and gravity hasnt had a chance to bow it out as much. IF SO.... then just remove the real loose stuff in the center and leave about 6 inches or more of old plaster all around. Use drywall patches that are slightly thinner than the layer of old plaster, attach with drywall screws at the studs, then put on skim coat or 2 over so that new patch is flush to the old plaster. Use real plaster to fill the gaps between drywall and old plaster - after cleaning it out and painting on a bonding agent to all the surfaces ie the lath, the new drywall and the edges of the old plaster. The bonding agent adheres the new plaster to the old plaster - otherwise it might crack where it meets..

This lazy method worked quite well for me on a couple of walls - still look good 10 yrs later - but what makes sense for you really would depend on your particular situation - the extent of the damage, etc.

historicalwork
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Re: Plaster Problems

Post by historicalwork »

I think we (at least me) often feel the plaster defines our house. We have one bedroom where they bumped out the wall to expand the bathroom in years past. They used drywall and it annoys me. Why? I'm not sure. In my head, I think that wall isn't old anymore - it has new studs, drywall, etc. Stupid but that's how I think about it in my head.

In the bedroom I'm working on now, I debated removing the plaster on the one wall. After removing the studs from the closet the PO installed, it was pretty damaged. I ended up with some large areas down to the lath and some other areas I added washers but probably should have removed it. And even though I used a setting compound versus traditional plaster, I feel like I "saved" the plaster wall. Does anyone else I know care whether I "saved" the wall versus hung drywall? Nope. But it makes me feel better.

In our other room the family was in a rush and we had a couple guys work on the room. There was a bad spot in the ceiling that was sagging. I recall saying I'd prefer to save it if possible but do what you think is right. Well, I should have known that guys that were painters and drywall hangers would hang drywall. I came home and the ceiling was done with drywall. Frankly, it looked good. Did anyone in the family shed a tear for the plaster? Nope. But it annoys me. Knowing what I've learned over the last few weeks working on this other room, I wish I would have fixed the ceiling in that other room myself. It was maybe a 3' x 4' area and I feel I could have done it.

I think if I had to take done all the plaster on one of the walls I'd take a shot at using the blue board and the veneer plaster. I think I'd feel as if the wall had the same feel. But I haven't researched it enough. On some level, I think I might try redoing the wall over again - structolite, easy sand and the premix for a finish coat. Not authentic but I think it would leave the wall with the same feel. I also realize it's a lot of work. I've seen some make the point that putting drywall over uneven studs will look worse because you can't smooth out the wall surface with the plaster (or whatever product). I suppose you could shim the surface to get it even.

Well, nothing really helpful in my reply. Just wanted to share my thoughts. Would be interesting to see any pictures showing the condition of your walls.

phil
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Re: Plaster Problems

Post by phil »

personally I would open up , insulate, rewire, then cover with new drywall but I would pull any trim and replace it later and try to keep the wall thickness so it matches up with the window frames , even if you have to add a little strip where the casing meets the window frame.

I find it's easier to do the whole thing , but if the wall doesn't have too many openings you might just laminate new 1/4" drywall..

to me if it's finished flat and looks ok you are done. In some houses the plaster is very wavy or a lot of curves and things are used but there are also techniques for bending it.

Id lay a long straight board against studs and if they arent' flat then use some strips of paneling to make shims to make it flat, or shave the studs that protrude.

If you dont; want to go tearing into stuff then just do your best to patch the plaster you have. I've found this more time consuming that just going for it and taking it off, but you are right it is messy and you have some dump runs to do as well.

It is more authentic to keep the plaster and if you like that way there is nothing wrong with that either. I at first felt it was important to keep it as part of the heritage, but I prefer just starting fresh, i find that for me, it's faster and more stable, but it is a choice you can make and you may or may not agree and every situation is different.
If you want to strip paint from your trim I'd pull it , if you dont' want to touch it then you can work around it but I find that for me , I can do a better job if I remove it and replace it at the end .

accolay
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Re: Plaster Problems

Post by accolay »

I agree that plaster is an element that defines old architecture and many times it is worth it to repair. However, I don't think that every old house is worthy of historical reverence to the extent that exact historic preservation is required (I draw the line at windows and other original elements- search Craigslist for people tearing out their original built-ins Why?)

This house is such a house. Drywall is going to win in my scenario.

The way the plaster is for this project, a complete tear out is what's going to happen. I will fur out the studs with lath prior to 1/2" drywall. I don't like the idea of dry walling over crumbling plaster. Yuck.

Frowny face :(

phil
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Re: Plaster Problems

Post by phil »

If you remove down to the studs, you can see if you can use 5/8ths rather than 1/2" . it's not much more, offers better fire protection and sound blocking. if the walls you do ever do separate rental suites it's code to have 5/8 fireproof. If you leave the plaster and put 1/4" drywall, what i do is put green glue between. once the drywall is on then it's really impossible to tell.
In most cases I removed it to get insulation in and you have to take into account if you are burying the casings and stuff. I take them out and put them back after the drywall but you still have to think of the thickness if there are windows or doors involved. I had a couple walls that had no wndows or doors and it would have made no visual difference to remove it. Sometimes it provides an extra sound barrier.

myself, I use the paper metal corner bead even on the inside corners. It makes things come out a bit more straight and square looking. you can just fold the paper tape if you prefer that way of course.


Phil

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