Urgent window question

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Greenwood
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Urgent window question

Post by Greenwood »

I'm sorry to post an urgent question just at Christmastime..... if anyone is around, I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts!

A windows question - I described my windows once before - they're single hung, the top sash was nailed in place, and the bottom sash slides freely and is held open in place with either either a spring action bolt or else an old-fashioned stick. My grandma used a stick.

My builder (who has been treating my renovation like a hobby), has built window jambs for my historic salvaged sashes. That is, the sashes came from my grandma's house and are being built into my new addition. I was able to extract one window jamb from my grandma's, and from there the builder built the jambs for all the windows.

I have not done anything to address weatherproofing generally. My approach has been mostly backward, I agree. I'll order storm windows after this builder has left my property and I can take control of the situation. But in addition to storm windows, I would want felt or other weather stripping, whatever will work for northern climate.

I have primed/painted the outsides of the sashes, and shellacked the insides, and now he is asking me to do the same for the sills/jambs. All this weekend, at Christmas. Because now there's an urgent rush to get the windows in. He wants to do it next week. :x

He screwed the upper sashes into the jam and has used silicone to seal them in place. The silicone is smeared onto the painted sash.

So, my question is, should I beat the builder with a 2x4 or can I work with that? Is it ok to have the upper sash, which is not supposed to move, siliconed in place?

What does that do for 'breathing' and proper installation of old windows?

Should I ask him to remove the screws now and replace with nails, as they were done originally, so that I can get the uppers out without having to remove the entire jamb? Or is there any need going forward to have an ability to remove those upper sashes? Does future maintenance require me to be able to remove those uppers? (some of them are 2nd story high), or is all future maintenance done in-situ?

I can always leave it be for now (aside from the screws), and pull the sashes out next summer to remove the silicone then. I will probably have to re-do some putty lines anyway, plus there's the weather stripping to add. But, it's easier to take out the silicone now while the sashes and jambs are on the shop floor. But if the screws should come out, they should come out now before.
Plus, who puts silicone over paint?? :doh:

Any thoughts?
Much appreciated!
Andrea

heartwood
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Re: Urgent window question

Post by heartwood »

where's my head slapping device??!! oh why or why do contractors make such a mess of windows?

the top sash of a single hung window, when first built, are often held in place with a 'jack' or slender piece of trim which is the same width as the sash...it is flat on the top where it supports the sash and beveled on the bottom to mimic the slope of the sill...I prefer to use slender blocks (may 4"-6" long), painted the same color as the exterior then set in place under the top sash with brass slotted screws...when it comes to removal (if the screws don't have 29 coats of paint on them), it's a simple approach...

never use silicone adjacent to something that will be painted...silicone does not hold paint...sometimes our clients specify to have the top sash caulked in place...I prefer not to do that but, if after I offer them my spiel, they want to go ahead I will do it reluctantly...caulk attracts molds and rarely is applied cleanly...

shellac doesn't typically hold up to moisture or water...do you want the jambs to be the color they are (pine? cedar? mahogany?) or do you want to stain them? there are better sealers than shellac... https://generalfinishes.com/retail-prod ... d-topcoats or spar varnishes that are rated for exterior surfaces or a couple of applications of blopentine....

it's important to consider the temps when painting...if you're going to paint and seal, I would suggest a few days of 40 degrees and higher...haste makes waste...

as far as weather stripping goes, I suggest using spring bronze rather then felt...felt attracts dust and moisture and offer silly painters get paint on the felt strip... http://kilianhardware.com/sprinbronwea.html

don't let this guy rush you...
good luck!
...jade

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GibsonGM
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Re: Urgent window question

Post by GibsonGM »

:( :( :( Silicone.... :( Latex is ok and infinitely more paintable, but what Jade said. Just asking for water to get in behind and be unable to get back out. Carpenters do this....and nobody can tell them not to, it seems. Yup, you probably want the upper sash to be removable "one day". I mean, if it needs re-glazing, or if a baseball goes thru it...

I'd want those "jacks", or blocks, not just nails or screws. Something that looks finished...you care about these windows, so they should show that. Screws/nails are what ppl put in before they call someone who knows what to do, who then fixes it right :)

Don't be afraid to use a 'window kit' around your windows if you have to...if the wind is flowing in, and freezing you! -20 isn't nice if you can't get your house warm...

Interior storm panels are a more long-term solution if you should find you just cannot get them tight enough....putting plastic/panel on the INSIDE prevents moisture from getting to your beautiful sashes and creating problems....there's much more info about that on here in other topics.

Good luck!

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Re: Urgent window question

Post by Greenwood »

Thanks!
Jade, I much appreciate your advice about not rushing. It's a classic situation of his lack of planning has led to my having an emergency. I'll tell him I'm not doing this weekend.

If you could come and help me slap up this builder, I would consider it a jolly Christmas!

So, if I understand your comments correctly:
1. Silicone itself is ok to seal a sash in place, it's just not ideal because moisture can be trapped behind it (in this case the silicone is smeared overtop of the painted sashes, so I will try to remove that over-smear before letting the windows be installed).
2. But the securing of the top sash in such a permanent manner is ok. There is no reason I'll need in the future to remove the upper sashes (I can re-putty or re-glaze in-situ if ever required).
3. But securing the top sash is best done with a jack or piece of trim and brass screws, that holds it up, that is accessible from the inside of the jamb.
4. Don't shellac the sill/jamb. Use a spar varnish etc.
5. Don't use felt for weatherstripping.
6. Use interior storm panel.

I'm attaching a couple of pictures. Note, I haven't cleaned up the overpaint on the glass yet.
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DSC_0463.jpg (79.88 KiB) Viewed 593 times
DSC_0462.jpg
DSC_0462.jpg (52.99 KiB) Viewed 593 times


The shiny gloss at the top of the last photo is the silicone.
Sigh.

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Gothichome
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Re: Urgent window question

Post by Gothichome »

Silicon is the devils work. In my view it has no place in old homes, come to think of it I don’t like silicon for anything. But it is there now. I would care,fully take a razor blade to as much as you can. The unfortunate thing is there will always be a slight silicon film there now unless you sand off the under laying finish.

heartwood
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Re: Urgent window question

Post by heartwood »

slap, smack, jab!! why oh why do carpenters do this??? some painters too, but not out Gibson!

1. I don't like caulk or silicone for pretty much any application...I had a guy remodel my bathroom...where he installed the beadboard in a corner, there was a good sized gap...when I pointed it out to him he raised his voice and said "that's what caulk is for!"...however, Historic New England (the oldest historic society in the US) has spec'd caulking the top sash in place to keep wind and rain out on projects where I have worked...in other words, if you will feel comfortable doing it, go ahead....please be prepared to have a hell of a time removing the silicone...

2. if they were my windows, I wouldn't...it's much easier to work on a sash when it's laying on a bench...it's not 'wrong' to install the top sash shut...it's all about your comfort level....

3.yes, that's the way I would do it...if you choose that route, you can remove the jacks/blocks then cut through the silicone for removal...

4. I would use a product that is rated for exterior use...varnish is not like paint, it will need more maintenance...clear sealants for marine use will be a good choice...something like this: http://www.tarsmell.com/letonkinois_original.html
(this is where I purchase my boiled linseed oil and turps...)

5. correct

6. I prefer an exterior storm as it protects the exterior of the primary sash and minimizes maintenance...many people choose interior storms for their excellent performance and they can be removed easily in the warmer months...I believe it's mick who has installed them in his home...

good for you...yea, let your contractor know who's calling the shots...no rushing a good think...
...jade

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GibsonGM
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Re: Urgent window question

Post by GibsonGM »

Gibson hates caulk in certain places...top sash being one of them! Someday, someone WILL want to take it out. It just makes it more difficult. But to each their own. If you cover silicone caulk with latex plus silicone ("Alex plus" by...umm...DAP), that makes it paintable.... At least nobody is using caulking as GLAZING here! LOL. Nothing is more fun that trying to heat that stuff out of glazing rabbetts....

This is my setup....exterior 'real' wooden storm, window sashes, and then the storm panel (home made) on the inside. The interior panel has backer rod cut in 1/2 for a gasket around it. My windows are nearly as efficient as replacement vinyl junk; no drafts, they 'poof' out with the pressure outside so I know they are working...you must install a drywall screw in each corner or they will pop out due to pressure!. The interior panel prevents 99% of warm air from exiting via the windows, and they are really non-intrusive. Note that I haven't gotten to restoring this here window yet, ha ha!

Note a little frost on my storm (this is why I'd have at least SOMETHING out there, as Jade noted; otherwise it will be your sashes that get the frost). This is due to moisture going AROUND my interior panel, just a tiny bit. Hits the cold glass and frosts. I can't find any way to relieve that, even a 1/4" airspace at bottom. Oh well. House is 68 in the morning when it's -10F and I heat entirely with wood via a dining room wood stove, so we're happy! :)

Image

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Re: Urgent window question

Post by phil »

albeit shellac on the inside isn't as weather resistant as spar varnish, it is original to my house and I would think others? Not that there is anything wrong with using poly/spar varnish, it will stand up longer without maintenance. I'd put oil first , then your choice.

I think I'd remove his silicone and when he comes back, just politely ask him not to use more. It sounds like he is trying to be diligent but yea they use it a lot in new construction to hide stuff. My house has no silicone anywhere, it isn't original. It has its place, like when you drop a sink in maybe.

looks like he's doing a nice job of the rest. If there is one way to insult a tradesman it's to tell him he's doing it wrong of make him feel he's not being diligent if he really is trying to. If he's working with you and being reasonably careful, don't throw insults.

My approach would be to pull the sash myself now. , clean the gunk off, reinstall it and when he comes back say you don't want that stuff trapping moisture. Lead by example, instead of arguing that his way is "wrong" Tell him you decided you'd rather have a little air leak age than use silicone. He'll realize you are being fussy about that and that you were concerned enough to rempve and replace the window and probably not be insulted... but if you asked him to pull the window and clean it off that would be harder for him to take, it would feel insulting in his mind.. and at the same time cut some sticks to do it the way suggested if you like that better, just do one then say you want the rest done that way instead of screwing them in.

Why not say you plan to do storms eventually if that's part of the plan? or to add bronze? it's ok to do this part now and that part later.. or to do more on your own when you aren't paying someone by the hour. maybe you want more clearance if you install the bronze?

I used to work in a plant that made windows, they bought silicone in 45 gallon drums and it would get pumped through a machine that would put it on around the frame with sensors to guide the nozzle. Sometimes we'd have to clean the parts and there was a solvent we used that would dissolve the stuff. I don't recall what it was, it might have been a specific product or something close to the thinner used for contact cement. - it was a strong solvent but it could dissolve the stuff.

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