Rotten Window Sills

[heartwood]

glad for your good news!!

and gothic, you're right, it's wood not granite...didn't look close enough!

...jade

[Willa]

Wait till you guys see my kitchen window sill ! It is as much of as a disaster as the dining room. Pics tomorrow in the daylight.

The storm window was really glued on, with no clearance to get the putty knife below. I used my small flat pry bar and wound up shattering the upper glass as the flimsy frame torqued. Not tempered glass, either. Luckily I only got a tiny nick but it was really scary.

If you need to basically glue your brand of storm windows on for them to be functional - and they rot window sills from within, this is not a good product !

[Willa]

The rot on my kitchen sill is as deep as a regular sized can of Pepsi ! The rot is only on one side though v.s. the dining room sill where the rot went all the way across, and was worst at the centre:

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Kitchen window in question after removing the storm window. The window itself is in good condition with the exception of a cracked pane of glass. No rot on the sashes at least:

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* Argh ! That sideways thing again ! How do I correct this ?

[phil]

not positive but if you are on a computer you could try to save it in a graphics program. Eg: open it in paint and then save the file and then use that , otherwise if it's an Iphone or ipad you can try to turn the automatic orientation feature off? you know so when you tip the phone the picture does not turn automatically? maybe if that is turned off (or on?) you won't have the issue?
on my iphone if I drag upwards from the bottom of the screen it brings up a little menu and on the right at the top of that menu there is a little symbol that looks like the earth with an arrow circling it.. portrait orientation lock it's called.
you can turn the flashlight on from that menu too.

[GibsonGM]

My take on this, Willa:

Ok, so it's rotted. Looks like you can save the sides of the casing (hopefully!), by scabbing in a couple of small pieces and sanding them, filler, etc. to match. An oscillating multi-tool makes easy work of that. Provided there's no surprises as Jade talked about, 'interlocking' portions that interfere with a clean insertion, etc...

You COULD do a 'poor man's' job of it and only deal with the rot, fit pieces of wood...but I wouldn't - I'd try to replace all of that. You'll want to do this so you never have to think about it again.

As said, you have to have the sill portion milled, and that's the big thing for this job. Perhaps you can find an old-school carpenter willing to cut out the right profile? There are often 1 or 2 old-timers around that can handle that without getting too pricey. Sliding in the new sill shouldn't be so bad! It stinks, but thankfully more wasn't chewed up...I'd like to see the other side, inside, to get a sense of how much needs to be disturbed in there. Maybe a pic with the window up, looking down at the works and showing how that sill sits inside...

A great example of why storms have to BREATHE!! Any place that warm, moist interior air can meet a cold structure = condensation. Interior storm panels prevent this, as very little interior air can escape past them if done right. Someone really let this go, as there would be signs of too much moisture over the years, and it could have been caught at a point where some filler and ventilation would have been the solution.

[Willa]

You COULD do a 'poor man's' job of it and only deal with the rot, fit pieces of wood...but I wouldn't - I'd try to replace all of that. You'll want to do this so you never have to think about it again.

A great example of why storms have to BREATHE!! Any place that warm, moist interior air can meet a cold structure = condensation. Interior storm panels prevent this, as very little interior air can escape past them if done right. Someone really let this go, as there would be signs of too much moisture over the years, and it could have been caught at a point where some filler and ventilation would have been the solution.

There is no point in attempting to patch in rotten portions - the damage is so wide and deep. The whole sill has gotta go. The brick mould is good until the very bottom where it met the sill. I am hoping to patch that in. The carpenter made some sounds about replacing all that - but I think if 95% is sound that patching in a little at the bottom is a more reasonable solution. On the interior side of the worst sills there does not appear to be any moisture infiltration or damage, cross my fingers. I won't know how truly bad this is until they come out.

From what I understand about the previous owners x 2, a family lived here from 1974 - 2006. The kids grew up and the parents got too frail to manage the house. I suspect they - or the owners prior to them - had the aluminum storms and doors put on. They definitely went for the whole she-bang. I'll bet the wood storm windows were getting a little rotten plus all the promises about the efficiency of the new storms with screens, plus they were more modern looking. BUT - while those storm windows might have been fine with aluminum windows with a cement sill they were really not appropriate for a house with wood windows and wood sills. I wish I could track down the original installer and give him a stern talking to ! The next owner 2006 - 2016 allegedly bought the house to flip it but soon found himself over his head with how much fixing there actually was to do. I think he rented the house to a troubled family (neighbours mentioned numerous police calls to this address plus I found really weird things like sheets of broken glass buried in the garden = ????), then the house was only semi-occupied, with whoever was living here only being here a very small amount of the time. Then it got sold to me.

I'm glad the previous owner didn't start trying to deal with the windows as that would have meant all the original sash windows would have been tossed in the trash and replaced with some crapola windows. Most of the houses across the street have new windows and some vinyl siding. I can only imagine what is hiding under the sill covers over there ! A particularly horrible neighbour bought a flipper house and was complaining about all the things she and her husband have had to fix or replace (and this is just what they can see).

[GibsonGM]

Yeah, that's often (usually) the case! Do you have many other windows with this going on, or just the one? Forgive me for not re-visiting the earlier posts.

I whole-heartedly agree...do the whole thing. I am surprised by how many people think they're going to save money on a patch-in job (say $300), only to really wish later they'd done it right when it fails...right might be $600, but you'll never be back there again! It's often actually MORE labor to fit new pieces into questionable surroundings, LOL. Having a 'crew' do a new replacement window would be more like $1,000, when all is said and done.

If you have the right carpenter to mill and install that sill, I think you'll be pleased after.

I'm lucky in that my place is mostly untouched...the PO's spent their time (10 years....) UNDOING, uncovering what a crazy old man had done here (covering plastered walls with glued-on vinyl sheets, things like that). They brought the lawn back from a jungle to decency...all of that was big work. I bought the unblemished truth - unfinished 2nd floor Cape with nice, simple original woodwork, original plaster and NO stupid 'inspired' modifications to the original floor plan. I thank them often (they were presidents of the local historical society), they gave me a blank slate if you will to restore the exterior (my day job specialty, it turns out). I built in the 2nd floor in keeping with the scheme of the original woodwork, and the whole deal flows pretty well.

The moral is that - an old home needs the right owners...some do it ALL, and some set the stage for the ones who will do the entire thing. Everything you do that is in the spirit of the home will add to it! Your attitude seems pretty good for that house - you understand that conserving is generally far better than tossing history in the trash. Long-term, that rotted sill will be a chuckle, you know!

[Willa]

Yeah, that's often (usually) the case! Do you have many other windows with this going on, or just the one? Forgive me for not re-visiting the earlier posts.

There are three sills that are dire. One of them is under some kind of bent tin, which I haven't dared pry up yet, but I'll bet it's another nightmare. Two sills on the other side of the house are deteriorated but seem possible to rehab. The bathroom sill upstairs is iffy - and is the hardest to get a good look at without setting up scaffolding, etc. due to the steep pitch of the roof.

The mill is going to run several lengths, which the carpenter will cut to size, and notch out the tails. This was calculated to generate the least waste. Even if I wind up storing a couple of sills for future use, that is 3/4 of the battle. The rotten sills are so rotten they are hopeless. It costs close to the same to get two short sills made as it would for a longer run for three or four due to set up costs, etc.

The upstairs windows have screens and windows that were regularly opened and closed, so I am severely hoping that there are not more sill horrors up there. When my second story painting begins for real and those storms come off I will brace myself for what is under them. Hope for the best but expect the worst...

The amount I will be spending to get this done would be far more thrilling to spend on a nicer sofa or other antique delights BUT - my house needs window sills. No way could I put up some fakey covers and relax after what I have seen.

I completely understand why people DON'T restore old houses. It is a lot of work, and most people today (aka "kids") do not have the personal hands on experience of doing repetitive labour to fix anything. Stuff gets tossed out and replaced without a second thought. In the time it has taken me to strip the porch stuff - and I'm not done yet - all of the second story could have been covered with "maintenance-free" siding, the old porch details thrown in the garbage or boxed in for more vinyl coverage, and the sash windows torn out and replaced with new ones. Most people (well in this neck of the woods)would consider these things to be an upgrade v.s. what I am doing is apparently an inexplicable abomination. Neighbours down the street, who had their house for sale at the same time as this one, acted miffed that I didn't buy their house. Yet their house, being the same age as this one, has had 90% of the old details stripped, the exterior is choked in vinyl, even over the brick. There was nothing left that I wanted ! I tried to make a tactful excuse...

[Lily left the valley]

{snip}There are three sills that are dire. One of them is under some kind of bent tin, which I haven't dared pry up yet, but I'll bet it's another nightmare.

The amount I will be spending to get this done would be far more thrilling to spend on a nicer sofa or other antique delights BUT - my house needs window sills. No way could I put up some fakey covers and relax after what I have seen.

From experience with an old house that had vinyl overlays on the original sills to "meet the depth" of the vinyl siding, check for any bee or wasp activity before you remove the tin. There were wasps behind the ones I dealt with, which I knew, and we thought we waited late enough in the year to to the removal when I had to repair one later added kitchen window, but nope! Only one wasp sting, thankfully. I was very glad for us standing on the barely sloped porch roof rather than a ladder when we did that work, although one had to be very careful to not step too far backwards and bump into or trip backwards over the main power line going to the house.

I completely understand why people DON'T restore old houses. It is a lot of work, and most people today (aka "kids") do not have the personal hands on experience of doing repetitive labour to fix anything. Stuff gets tossed out and replaced without a second thought. In the time it has taken me to strip the porch stuff - and I'm not done yet - all of the second story could have been covered with "maintenance-free" siding, the old porch details thrown in the garbage or boxed in for more vinyl coverage, and the sash windows torn out and replaced with new ones. Most people (well in this neck of the woods)would consider these things to be an upgrade v.s. what I am doing is apparently an inexplicable abomination. Neighbours down the street, who had their house for sale at the same time as this one, acted miffed that I didn't buy their house. Yet their house, being the same age as this one, has had 90% of the old details stripped, the exterior is choked in vinyl, even over the brick. There was nothing left that I wanted ! I tried to make a tactful excuse...

As to why folks don't restore, I can't speak for Canada, but here in the US, I've two cents on that...
1) We have become a disposable culture, where anything old needs to be replaced with new & shiny even if it's inferior. Quite a few places we looked at had jacked up prices because of new & shiny, and we just sighed and kept looking.

It makes me downright sad, really, at how many homes have been plasticized here in Gardner for no good reason other than marketing and the lure of "life time guarantee". You'd think in a town known for crafters, somehow folks would have more sense. Yet the bulk of the old wood working factories are long gone, and apparently common sense was not handed down.

2) COL has risen + stagnant wages + growing need/costs to keep up with the Joneses = less funds and free time leftover for such work.

When I was growing up, our family wasn't the first, but was an early one to have a personal computer in our working class neighborhood. No one had cell phones, and internet barely existed (You've got mail!). Those things alone are now standard, which also takes funds away from other things.

[Willa]

From experience with an old house that had vinyl overlays on the original sills to "meet the depth" of the vinyl siding, check for any bee or wasp activity before you remove the tin. There were wasps behind the ones I dealt with, which I knew, and we thought we waited late enough in the year to to the removal when I had to repair one later added kitchen window, but nope!

There was quite a happy carpenter ant metropolis happening in the rotten sills. While I was stripping the window frame on the window with the tin cover I didn't observe any bee/wasp activity. I guess the carpenter ants colonized that moist, mulch address and that was that.


I can't speak for Canada, but here in the US, I've two cents on that...
1) We have become a disposable culture, where anything old needs to be replaced with new & shiny even if it's inferior. Quite a few places we looked at had jacked up prices because of new & shiny, and we just sighed and kept looking.

It makes me downright sad, really, at how many homes have been plasticized here in Gardner for no good reason other than marketing and the lure of "life time guarantee". You'd think in a town known for crafters, somehow folks would have more sense. Yet the bulk of the old wood working factories are long gone, and apparently common sense was not handed down.

2) COL has risen + stagnant wages + growing need/costs to keep up with the Joneses = less funds and free time leftover for such work.

It is completely the same in Canada. Like neighbours have giant tv's and multiple PC's but none of their kids have bicycles, do sports or any other outside activities like crafts or Girl Guides. But they all know how to use a Smartphone.

I am seriously scared for these kids. Way too much internet and popular culture with a lack of proper socialization and exercise and no critical thinking abilities whatsoever. Neighbours refuse to give their cat medication that costs $0.50 per day but mother loves their Keurig coffee maker with the expensive coffee pods that generate loads of garbage v.s. buying a loose pound of coffee...

Thus: vinyl siding and giant puffy furniture that gets thrown out and replaced every ten years.