Installing Porch Windows

Need advice, technical help or opinions, you will find plenty here! (Technical posts here)
Post Reply
User avatar
Willa
Revered expert in almost everything
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:46 pm

Installing Porch Windows

Post by Willa »

The room at the back of the house is what could loosely be called the back porch. It's an addition of unknown age, but I suspect 1930's or 40's. The interior is awful.

Last year I salvaged these windows (probably former storm windows, definitely previously repurposed from elsewhere) from the apartment above my terrible apartment. The new owner was doing some basic repairs to help the building meet basic code, and decided these would go in the trash. Of course I stepped in.

Obviously I will need to undo the wall interior coverings to see what is going on, structure wise. What do I need to know about installing windows in a wall where there was none before ? I looked online and read a little about headers, etc. Can anyone give me a basic rundown of how this should be properly done ?

The back porch has a little useless insulation. I would like to install the windows so they don't open, partly for ease of installation, partly for security. The frames are in good shape with no rot, but are in desperate need of new glazing. There was a definite history of frugality, as cracked panes have been repaired with lead came, like is used for stained glass = ????

Here are the windows in their previous home:

_DSC0001.JPG
_DSC0001.JPG (1.24 MiB) Viewed 676 times


How they were installed there:

_DSC0042.JPG
_DSC0042.JPG (1.38 MiB) Viewed 676 times


Lined up against my back porch wall for consideration:

_DSC0002.JPG
_DSC0002.JPG (1.64 MiB) Viewed 676 times


Close Up of glass repair with lead came:

_DSC0004.JPG
_DSC0004.JPG (993.39 KiB) Viewed 676 times

User avatar
Jeepnstein
Been here a good while
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:01 pm
Location: Sciotoville, OH

Re: Installing Porch Windows

Post by Jeepnstein »

Have you ever done framing carpentry? If not then I'm going to go out on a limb and say you'll probably want to hire it done, if for no other reason than to learn how it's done. There are books and online tutorials but this job is a pretty big one. And if the previous owner didn't frame the porch correctly it will be even worse. I'd be tempted to just plan on framing new walls with proper window openings.

User avatar
Willa
Revered expert in almost everything
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:46 pm

Re: Installing Porch Windows

Post by Willa »

I have zero framing experience. I want to hire someone competent to do this - but first need to know the fundamentals. That is the worst thing about trying to hire someone - you can be told anything - and have no clue about whether what you are told is reasonable or insane. My experiences with local contractors have been D- so far.

Can you explain how this would/should be done, in plain English ?

User avatar
Gothichome
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4183
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:34 pm
Location: Chatham Ont

Re: Installing Porch Windows

Post by Gothichome »

Willa, I think I would start with a tape measure, will they fit? Are they close to fitting, if to sashes are a little two small? You can always add filler strips to fill the gap. If to big, how much to big, you shave some off. Both real easy starter projects.
My suggestion might be a little far out there, but check the local trade colleges. Or even those retraining places that work with people in need some employable skills. They may take on the project as a training experience for cost of materials.

User avatar
Willa
Revered expert in almost everything
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:46 pm

Re: Installing Porch Windows

Post by Willa »

I am mostly concerned that there are some awful surprises with regards to how the back porch was built. I don't want to compromise the wall the windows would be installed in without an adequate amount of structural support.

I think three of the windows are identical sizes, with some variation in the other two. I am not set on having five windows installed in the back wall, as this would lessen potential closet space. Even two large windows would really brighten it up.

Realistically, when I am ready to do this, the interior of the porch will need to have the wood panelling removed to better understand what is up with the structure itself ? The porch also has a fairly high peaked roof, so I have wondered about opening that up, as the current ceiling is strangely low and oppressive.

There is a back door that can hardly be opened or closed, so there has either been some major settling that has happened or who knows what else is going on ? (Why there are two back doors about ten feet apart is another question. I wouldn't feel terrible about losing this door.)The porch is built on a cement slab as far as I can tell ?

A friend has given me the # of a former teacher of hers who taught various trades. If he can spare the time and is willing, I would love to have his input. I'll need months of thinking before I am ready to tackle this, even if someone else is doing 99% of the work.

Of course I am dying to rip off the vinyl siding but until there is a plan and a budget for this I am not going to do more make work projects, until my kitchen and powder room nightmares are resolved and completed.

Olson185
Been here a good while
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:36 am

Re: Installing Porch Windows

Post by Olson185 »

For what you're proposing (installing windows along the back wall), it's a very easy project and the structural issues are easily addressed. Two groups of two adjacent windows would be very easy and take an hour or so to frame out. Putting all five windows adjacent in a row could be more problematic if studs can't be placed between them. I see little to no benefit to not allowing a stud between each one.

My particular concern would be the footings supporting the slab, upon which you indicate the porch might be resting, the connection of the porch roof to the house, and the structural supports throughout the porch. But the window part is not an issue.

It's possible to get a fair idea of the existing structural components (slab footings, rim joists, sill plates, etc) without a lot deconstruction. A stud finder, 3/16"-5/16" drill bits, unbent coat hangar, wood skewers, neodymium magnet, lead/steel sinker on fishing line, level, and metal detector are all one really needs to investigate a structure that can't be partially deconstructed. Of course, it's much easier to strip the interior to the studs to understand if there's rot or other problems.

Since you propped the windows low against the wall, I have to ask if you have a Code issue with non-tempered glass being below 18" from floor level?
~James

Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.

User avatar
Willa
Revered expert in almost everything
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:46 pm

Re: Installing Porch Windows

Post by Willa »

The height the windows were propped against the wall is only a result of the height of the milk crates - I would not want them that low on the wall. Propping them up that way was only to give me a better idea of how they would look - and how much space five in a row would take up.

With regards to non-tempered glass and local building codes - hmmm - you've got me. I'll have to investigate whether I need a permit ? If so, there is no way they would okay those windows.

I would hope to sneak them in, and once they were in they should look like they were part of the original structure ?

phil
Has many leather bound books
Posts: 4616
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:11 pm
Location: Near Vancouver BC

Re: Installing Porch Windows

Post by phil »

I think you are getting in to an area that is a bit questionable. as long as you are maintaining the structure existing then I think you are fine but what you are proposing to do is a structural modification of the building. that means that to go "by the book" you need a building permit and right away they will want a sign off from the structural engineer and then you can hire a carpenter to build it to the plan he has drawn.

now lets say you go out on a limb and say ok Im just going to hire a carpenter and sneak it through without opening a permit, now you are going into an area where you ave modified the building without a permit. now anyone in the neighborhood simply needs to call the city and ask if they have issued a permit for this and whammo now you have city inspectors slapping a no occupancy permit on it , then they are going to pull out the rule book. they are going to look at things like the distance to your neighbors house and fire spread. If you are close enough then they can say you can't have that much window exposure on the side because a fire could potentially jump more easily from one house to the other and then they will look at the size of the window and they have regulations in place that will allow a fireman access with his gear since it's divided panes that don't open this might be too much of a barrier for code..
i think there is a code about the allowable windows on the side of your house and I thinnk it's a percentage. perhaps the rule is also to give your neighbors privacy as for example it mayu cause situations if you designed your house a certain way and then all of a sudden your neighbor looks straight into your living room through their new window.

so all your neighbor needs to do is wait till its done then call the city and you'll be into this for thousands.. now that may not happen especially if your neighbors aren't' going to do anything like that but they can easily shrug and say they didn't' call as the cite will keep their complaint in confidence.

your choice how you go. my neighbor tried to add one window and I didn't complain but the city made them take it out again later , they also added a window that was done according to the structural engineers sign off and still they had to take that one out and resize it to the code as I outlined above about the fireman access... now how the load is supported and how that ties in tothe framing for the roof and how well the stud spacing works with that , you might need a beam and not just a header. I'd be tempted to pull all the panelling and do a scale drawing to give the structural engineer to save him time and he could go in the house with that and check to see its done right. and then transpose that to a set of engineering drawings.

if you hired a competent carpenter could he build it so it doesn't fall down, certainly.. but that won't prevent someone putting a call intot he city or even an inspector noticing the job being underway during or after.

Its completely your choice how you deal with those risks I don't care obviously but I'd just think about it and how you'd feel if you had to rip it all out and start over and pay for it , maybe it is a risk you can afford, maybe not you financial situation might govern your willingness to take that kind of risk.

a carpenter should understand the load and how the weight is being distributed and likely he could build somethign safe but it really you need the guy with the letters behind his name to know you wont' get stopped or made to do it a year later when some neighbor makes a phone call because they dont' like where you piled your snow or some silly reason.. If it's a big property and out of town then you might have less chance of issues than if your neighbors house is 20 feet from yours.

I know the city I am in uses areal photos and with overlays of different colors for different years they can see at an instant if the roofline changes. this wouldn't get noticed that way.. also the tax assessor may look at the outside of the building. i dont' know if there is likely to be a connection between him and the city maybe not.

If it were me I'd be afraid to do that one without a permit because I'd be scared of the financial stress it would cause if It got called. maybe if I had enough cash on-hand to correct that issue without it being a huge financial burden then maybe I'd look at it a bit differently. If it's inside the house its easier to keep it under the radar.

if you pull a permit for some subsequent issue like say you want a garage then they can start snooping around and become detectives all of a sudden since it's publicly visible you cant' tell if someone might have a photo which could prove the mod was done during your ownership but I guess you could try to say it was always there and it may well go unnoticed too.. on the other hand the city inspector has a lot of power , if he thinks there is a safety concern he might even look at this porch and say it wasn't built to code or as a part of the original structure and condemn it. maybe that is a severe situation that is perhaps very unlikely but if they think it's unsafe then I'd be wary because they will win every time if you stir the inspectors up.

Phil

User avatar
Neighmond
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:15 pm
Location: Rural Emmet County Iowa
Contact:

Re: Installing Porch Windows

Post by Neighmond »

If you could put them in without tearing the outside siding off, you could photograph the vinal coming off and windows peeking out and make a case for repairing an existing porch.

Might work. .gov over reach is one of those things that I take delight in foiling.

phil
Has many leather bound books
Posts: 4616
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:11 pm
Location: Near Vancouver BC

Re: Installing Porch Windows

Post by phil »

Ha good idea , I like it ;-) you could even nail the siding to a couple sheets of plywood to cover it up until it's finished lol ;-)


Also check the codes. I don't know them all. I found this info and it seems to refer to egress from bedrooms but maybe the rules aren't applicable to the porch area. I know in my neighbors suite they were concerned about the egress from the kitchen area not a bedroom.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/homesnews/ ... ess-window

You can buy the code books from the queens printer but they can be expensive , I would think a local library might have them and be able to help clarify. I dont; know that they are online and I think this should be info that is publicly available.

In the context of a bedroom. I was at the bank and asked if renting a room out in my house could be considered additional income as this can reflect how much I can borrow. they put me in touch with someone that could inspect the house and put me in touch with foreign exchange students. they would look at things like a bedroom window size and if it were not up to standard they could say it was not an appropriate bedroom and reject me. evidently I can sign up and guarantee a certain length of time and in that way I could then say it is additional income , but if I simply sublet a room it might not be considered a source of income.

Also when my house was listed before I bought they made some claims about the number of bedrooms and some didn't fit the requirements, I think they had to pull the listing because someone pointed it out to the realtor. so I guess if you advertise the house as a 3 bedroom one of them cant' have for example a small window or low ceiling height. It is still a usable room but maybe not a "bedroom" - so there are two examples of where it might be grandfathered in as original, and the city wouldn't make me remove them but still it could be a "gotcha"

near me I see a lot of houses undergoing extreme renovations , so they lift the house and tear it all apart and put it back together on a new foundation to gain a full height basement and basically turn it into two dwellings. they almost always strip the houses righ tot the studs. When undergoing renos like this it is probably likely that they will resize ( and replace) a lot ( or all) the windows to fit the code as they are going so far with the renos it cant' really be considered maintenance to the existing.
Phil

Post Reply