I'm premature in posting this but I'm ruminating about my recent, partial gutter installation and need to clear my head, by venting, so I can focus on other things.
Despite all efforts to the contrary, I consider my home my "child". I did design it, hired the sub-contractors, and participated and supervised in its construction and I developed a tendency to be a "helicopter homeowner". I wasn't nearly this obsessive toward my son so I don't know from where this dolting attitude came. I can only surmise that, with a child, the effort and expense is spread out over, at least, 21 years, whereas, with my home, a similar effort and expense was condensed into the four years from purchase of the property to (almost) finished "birth" of the home.
I probably should also point out that, like with expectant parents who hope the pregnancy goes well and the baby is born healthy, we experienced certain complications in our home's "pregnancy" and there were a few minor "birth defects" presented "at birth" (upon receiving our Certificate of Occupancy). Given that everything did not go as planned, every additional "abnormality"is a trial or tribulation that is (sub)consciously added to all those that came before it.
We recently made another compromise regarding our gutters. For three years we've put off having any installed so that 1) we could see how the property drains and make corrections to the grading, 2) determine the impact of being gutterless on the basement (this took two years), and 3) find someone experienced with soldering/welding copper gutters. Because of difficulties with #3, this year we decided to (maybe temporarily) install dark bronze coloured aluminum gutters.
1) I think the rim of the gutters are installed (nearly) touching the roof deck (no min. 1-1/4" separation). I won't be getting up there to check until this weekend. Our fascia is 10" high and our roof slope is something like 9/12 and the gutters vary between 5" and 6" according to typical run-off volume. I'm also not sure there's the min. 1/2" per 10' slope.
2) The spacing and locations of the half-round gutter brackets don't appear to have any relation to the rafter tails. I'll be checking this, too, but given #1 above this might be a good thing if the brackets are repositioned lower (as I'd rather just have additional holes in the fascia and not both the fascia and rafter tails).
3) We have two HVAC pvc pipes coming through the fascia. One is the A/C condensate line (which may drain into the gutter) and the other is the furnace drip pan overflow drain (which should not drain into the gutter but extend past the gutter). The gutter installer cut the drip pan drain line (without asking), notched the gutter (eghad!), and installed the gutter, apparently, touching the roof deck (as in #1 above).
Here's the real kicker: None of these things (if they exist) are catastrophic in and of themselves! It's just the difference between being a professional and following "best practices" and being a clueless DIYer. I think what started my worry is his cutting of my drip pan drain line (without conferring with me) and the notching of the gutter. Once I see a "pro" do something that's not the best thing to do, I start to question (internally) everything he may or may not be doing.
[Takes a deep breath and exhales] Whew! There. Thanks. I think I feel a bit more "Zen".
[Edit: Boy! If only I had a drone to fly up there to take a look.]
Gutter
Gutter
~James
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Re: Gutter
Today, Sat. 8/6, the gutter guy came by around 10:30 AM so we could explain the situation and get his perspective.
I had looked for authoritative guidelines for gutter installation pertinent to our situation. I couldn't find any other than
This Old House: How to Install Aluminum Gutters (video)
and
This Old House: All About Gutters (article)
and the best one
Berger Gutter Installation (PDF)
The meeting went did not lead to a resolution.
When I showed him the Berger page A11, showing how the outside edge of the gutter should be below the plane of the roof, he didn't understand what it meant. When I explained it was meant to help prevent falling sheets of ice or snow from getting caught on the gutter, he reassured us it would be impossible for sheets of ice or snow to cause the gutters to bend or become detached.
When I asked, why it would be advantageous for the ice and snow to be kept from falling off the roof and whether or not this would lead to ice damning? He said he didn't get the point and immediately explained he was a professional, been doing this for X(X) years (I don't remember how many) and on "600 homes".
Well, long story short, he stormed off when we refused to accept the installation as is and he refused to re-install them according to what we feel are the best practices guidelines. I did offer that if he could present documentation that his installation is correct for our situation we would pay the balance due of what he installed and finish the project using someone else willing to do it the way we want it done. He refused that idea because, again, he's the professional.
BTW, while he was here it started raining and the end caps were leaking, lol.
I had looked for authoritative guidelines for gutter installation pertinent to our situation. I couldn't find any other than
This Old House: How to Install Aluminum Gutters (video)
and
This Old House: All About Gutters (article)
and the best one
Berger Gutter Installation (PDF)
The meeting went did not lead to a resolution.
When I showed him the Berger page A11, showing how the outside edge of the gutter should be below the plane of the roof, he didn't understand what it meant. When I explained it was meant to help prevent falling sheets of ice or snow from getting caught on the gutter, he reassured us it would be impossible for sheets of ice or snow to cause the gutters to bend or become detached.
When I asked, why it would be advantageous for the ice and snow to be kept from falling off the roof and whether or not this would lead to ice damning? He said he didn't get the point and immediately explained he was a professional, been doing this for X(X) years (I don't remember how many) and on "600 homes".
Well, long story short, he stormed off when we refused to accept the installation as is and he refused to re-install them according to what we feel are the best practices guidelines. I did offer that if he could present documentation that his installation is correct for our situation we would pay the balance due of what he installed and finish the project using someone else willing to do it the way we want it done. He refused that idea because, again, he's the professional.
BTW, while he was here it started raining and the end caps were leaking, lol.
~James
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Re: Gutter
I realize you may not have been able to keep your account totally free of bias but, even considering that, your professional sounds like a dimwit.
Re: Gutter
Manalto wrote:I realize you may not have been able to keep your account totally free of bias but, even considering that, your professional sounds like a dimwit.
I deliberately kept the post short and gave just the key points about the outer edge of the gutter being above the projected plane of the roof and he not be willing to change how they were installed.
If I talked about the other things said, you guys would think I was making it up to bolster my point of view. I don't understand "crazy" very well so I'm sure I'd get his perspective wrong if I delved too deeply into it.
My fault in all this, I did not recognize the problem on the first gutter run installed. I have no clue why it didn't jump out at me right away. I think that's the thing that bothers me most.
I think I was distracted by his failure to supply rubber gaskets for hanging copper rain chains from an aluminum gutter. I used the membrane from a plumber's faulty shower pan installation (something else I caught) to make the gaskets. See? It pays to be a hoarder of materials, lol.
~James
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.
Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.