Late 40's Drywall with Plaster Veneer Film

[Casey]

The product was a viable substitute for wooden lath, (which got 3 coats in most cases) hence Rocklath.
Casey

[Texas_Ranger]

What was the advantage of rock lath over wood lath? Wood seems to be lighter and probably slightly sturdier. It might even be cheaper.

[Casey]

Much faster to hang. Did not need wetting to bond w/plaster. In the US, wood lath was soaked in barrels of water, put up wet and covered immediately.

[vvzz]

Love those old videos!!! The explanations are so clear and concise!!!

Hate the 'leave it to pro' attitude though. I'm surprised they didn't show the bumbling DIYer's wife which would complete the narrative that is so typical nowadays(hapless husband tries a project, fails and ultimately has to hire a so called 'pro')

[Willa]

Love those old videos!!! The explanations are so clear and concise!!!

Hate the 'leave it to pro' attitude though. I'm surprised they didn't show the bumbling DIYer's wife which would complete the narrative that is so typical nowadays(hapless husband tries a project, fails and ultimately has to hire a so called 'pro')

It's different today where the focus is to sell everything to everyone, which downplays the value of many trades.

But also gone are the days of skilled apprenticeship (with the exception of plumbers and electricians, and a few others) so now many folks can call themselves contractors with very little skill, experience, or a trades assoc. they have to answer to with minimum standards.

If I could find a plasterer with the skill of the guys in the video I would hire them in a heartbeat. Instead I've encountered fibbing bumblers, so I'm forced to learn as I go as I DIY instead.

[phil]

drywaller is a trade as is lather. In canada w do have apprenticeships and red seal journeyman. you have to have a certain number of hours, take courses and pass the trades qualification to get your ticket. In the US Id be surprised if there are no journeymen. Of course when you are speaking of using antiquated techniques for reasons of authenticity they will be fewer.
Im the same , I'm handy enough and small contractors are often difficult to deal with but there are great ones. I agree it isn't always easy for a homeowner to find them. You might speak to some of the restoration companies that deal with issues like fire and flood repairs. for me the reasons not to hire out are mostly financial but also I like to have control of the quality levels.

usually it is a lot more economical and practical to use modern materials and techniques but If you really want plaster there are guys, you just might be paying travel and hotels and such if you arent' in a major center and you may have to find out who the specialists are in your area.

when you see the guys putting on plaster in that movie, Yea it is a trade in itself and like many others it got replaced for the most part with newer materials and techniques. thise that spend their careers in these trades will have experience even with interior plaster but they aren't commonplace.
maybe you could check with the apprentichip board in your area and see where the courses are.

here's some canadian info
Lather: http://www.itabc.ca/program/lather-inte ... -installer
drywall finisher
http://www.itabc.ca/program/drywall-finisher

you could have a look around here as well
http://www.red-seal.ca/about/pr.4gr.1m-eng.html

[Willa]

I haven't encountered a tradesperson who has advertised or mentioned that they were part of Red Seal anything, nor have I ever heard of it before. Licensed plumbers and electricians can show you their license. Licensed General Contractors have to take a basic course and pay a fee to the city for their license, but this license is no indicator of skill or quality. A few years ago there was a CBC investigation about shady contractors, and some of them were such creeps that they stole photos of renovations from other sites and claimed it was their own work !

Your itabc info is specific to British Columbia. Ontario is perhaps like the wild west with regards to anyone in a renovation related trade. Lots of baloney and blustering, and few ways for homeowners to cross reference their claims.

[phil]

yes I believe the trades qualification process is becoming more standardized so that if people travel within Canada their ticket is still good. I'm a red seal millwright so I believe that is recognized in every province. there may be other qualified journeymen with trades qualification that are not red seal.. a lot of info pertaining to eastern provinces it is explained in the last link of my above post. if you hire someone who claims to have journeyman status you have every right to see a ticket before he commences. if you don't you might actaully be somewhat liable. That is your proof. No ticket, he isn't a journeyman plain and simple. there are a lot of contratcors who lie about this.
since a GC may hire lots he would have some knowledge about what tickets are valid.
by law you need to pull a permit to do almost anything and if you pull a permit the city may want to know who the journeyman was. if you didn't hire an electrician that wont' fly. homeowners may have some inherent rights to do their own work. like maybe to change an outlet but not to move one.

I was able to rewire my whole house but I couldn't have a friend help - say to pull wire for example. a family member is permitted.. I think they tightened the rules so you would need an electrician now. my brother is an Electrician so he assisted and that was ok with the inspector.

if you do wiring you don't want bob the handyman doing it. though he may have the skills he isn't qualified legally. I have basic skills but if someone asked me to move a plug I'd say no, hire an electrician for that. I wouldn't' want the liability case if they have a fire even if it isn't related.

I do however repair machinery so I can work on electrical systems in machinery where most ( house wiring) electricians would be lost. I won't go past the connection or the wire drop to the machine. Anything that side needs an electrician. obviously there are areas where I work with an electrician and we are both qualified to work together and may assist each other, but I wouldn't bring , for example a plant worker into repairs in a control box. If he put his hand in the wrong place I'd feel terrible and possibly be liable. I might do something like mount an electrical panel but the connections I dont do . if a component fails I can replace it with the same component, if we need to add a bunch of changes to make newer parts work for example then I'd consult an electrician but then I need a guy with those skills so even being qualified as an electrician may not be enough experience to be knowledgeable about a PLC or variable frequency drive or something like that.
Especially true if his field is house wiring. In commercial its mostly 3 phase and there is a lot to learn about the controls. working at safe distances is part of it. the higher the voltage the more PPG you need if it is live. specail gloves even cotton underwear.. I dont' work around high voltage stuff like power lines , that again is a different skill set. Often I do work around 600V 3 phase. If you come into contact with that you dont' get a shock that scares you, you quite possibly die.

if you had joe handyman build your stairs would his ticket be questioned by the inspector? maybe? I dont hire enough to have a lot of experience wiht that around my house. when working with machinery I often have to work with the manufacturers factory engineers and such to troubleshoot etc.

it makes sense there are a lot of drywallers who go cutting wires and doing repairs and dont' know what they are doing. a ticketed drywaller might not be qualified to move a plug but at least he'd have the training to figure out which breaker was used for the room and lock it out before he started driving screws for example. if he would move an outlet then you should at least know thats a no no and if he hurts himself is he insured for that? you don't want the liability. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that there are no drywallers that could successfully move a box and do it properly but as a homeowner hiring people yea you should see a ticket or at least know where the liabilities lie if there should be an accident. On a commercial scale the drywall contractor would just say you need an electrician to move that outlet.

things happen where contractors do stuff like drive a screw in the wire or a pipe or cut a wire and cover their mistake by taping it together and tucking it back in the wall.. an electrician wont' normally do that kind of stuff. His job is to make it safe.

Im not saying dont hire bob the handyman, it may be practical but I guess as a homeowner acting as your own GC you have some of the liability to see that they are actually working within their trades or at very minimum within their skillset and not crossing legal boundaries so much. you get in some sticky situation where they could go after you personally after an accident happens. so a GC would likely want o see that ticket because he doesn't wan to be held liable for hiring Joe handyman to build a set of stairs unsafely or something similar. He wants a carpenter who knows how to do it right. the ticket assures him a certain level of experience and training has been completed. this is why the trades qualifiacation exam is important.
Painting is a trade so I get what you mean. If you hire a guy to paint a bedroom are you going to ask for his ticket? I would if he says he is a journeyman painter because if he is lying I'd want to know upfront. If he is a painter and doesn't use the word journeyman that's different. maybe sometimes you get what you apy for and sometimes that's what you want economically but there are some fine lines and areas where I'd stop to think about good judgement.

if he shows you a ticket that proves he had training and courses and took it seriously as his trade. often that isnt' the case the ticket gives you that assurance. otherwise you hire him, then you may be disappointed that his skills dont' reflect the line of BS he fed you when you hired him. Even with a painter , he could make costly mistakes if he isn't experienced. there are many good ones that dont' have a ticket but then you have to hire them and take the chance they live up what they say.. and a ticket doesn't mean the guy knows how to work or show up on time or that he actiually cares about doing a good job.
if he does the worst job ever and you try to take that to small debts court they would probably say you hired joe to paint this wall and he painted the wall so now you pay him.. in otherwise legally you may not have a leg to stand on when you say yea but the paint is all runny and he just made a sloppy mess..

what protection do you have ? ask the right questions , ask for tickets, maybe give him a little job and see how that goes before you give him a 5000 dollar contract all on good faith? Angies list? maybe? or ask for references or pictures of his recent jobs.. maybe a good one is I want three references and I dont want any older than 3 months. or a year? and can I go see these jobs or at least one of them? that also proves he is actively practicing and didn't just jump off the couch and decide he's now a painter. maybe his equipment shows if he's a fly by nighter. If he's a painter he probably has a vehicle with painting tools and not just some new brushes and a gallon of paint. You'd expect to see drop sheets and painty ladders and things.

[Willa]

Phil, ya gotta come to southern Ontario and start cold calling various contractors. It's like the worst blind date when they come to my house to quote, and the baloney starts. The ones that will come to my house, or return my phone calls that is, due the "bad" part of town I'm in.

Definitely within a profession like being a millright there are obvious standards and qualifications and associations.

Not so much for post hole diggers, eavestroughing repair, and self professed "master carpenters" (with no credentials to validate what they are saying). Or the contempt I have been shown inquiring about getting a thing done, then the whopping quote for a job that would not even take 8 hours. The giant quote because they a) think I'm dumb and b) don't want to do it but hope I might be stupid and willing/able to pay anything. Plus also the demands to be paid cash under the table.

This is definitely different from your work environment where you are probably not an independent contractor, and are working within a business or government entity.

Again and again these dudes are unwilling or unable to fix old things, like original plaster, and have a mindset that drywall is better, etc., etc. so their skill level is oriented towards old = bad, new =only what they'll do.

Like I said, if I could find a competent and experienced contractor, I would be happy to pay them fairly for their skill. Sifting out their actual skill level, then their attitude towards my home, and me is a whole other headache.

I did find an established plumbing business that was willing to deal with my old sink after a little fussing on their part - and they were professional, and skilled. I would use them again, even though they weren't as inexpensive as so and so's uncle's cousin. They demonstrated their professionalism, did the job they promised, didn't have a hidden agenda and treated me with respect. This was rare in my experience, so far !

Even in a city with old houses, good luck finding a plasterer who works with actual plaster.

[phil]

I can see your dilemma. I guess you just have to keep lokng and hopefully youll find the right people. at least you are dilligent about asking the right questions and not afraid to say nope and pick up the phone again. One way to find good people is to contact their respective union, there is a painters union , electrical union, carpenters union etc. a call to the union hall saying what you are experiencing might prompt them to give you names of actual trades people. most of the better tradesmen want to get an acceptable rate and often that means working in the field with little guys and learning their trade. wwheater its an apprenticeship or maybe just working they need to build enough hours and then they can study and pass the TQ. I know a guy that just passed his electrical TQ without the apprenticship and he studied it lots and he was an electronics tech to begin with , but he had done background work fixing UPS systems in hospitals and working for the CSA as an inspector. in general once these guys get their tickets they go work for union employers where they get fair pay and benefits and it isn't a cat and mouse game to get paid properly with pay stubs etc. when times are in the employee favor these experienced guys have jobs but when the layoffs come they will go into private industry and work for these two bit contractors until they get called back in.

now Im not saying non union or union is better. I dont' wish to start that argument over the forum and you will get varied opinions, some are happy to work for the little guy and maybe they get some other benefits like if thye have to leave every day to pick the kids up at 3 the little contractor might give a little more leeway and the employee might like that environment and yes there are institutions and such where there is a lot of bickering. there are also some mean employers that dont' pay on time or are verbally abusive on the job. usually in a union environment there are strategies to deal with those issues.

in short people want to get as much pay and the best benefits they can. blame them ? If they can get a good job they go there and if they can't then they have to survive so they do what they have to. also there are some unions which are "company unions" I worked for one where they paid me over the millwright rate that their funny union set because they couldn't retain anyone good for that , the union had based the rate lower than industry standard. it happens so it does matter which union.
you are probably right though that a lot of the sub trades like a gutter installer or whatever, a floor layer,, you might have a harder time finding a union guy that will come and take on a little job and deal direct with the homeowner.

often I have to call technicians in and they may not be union but I have to hire ones that have the knowledge like factory training on certain devices.

on the plus side if it is an employee market right now , that isn't such a bad thing. if it is hard to get employees and they are making money and busy then that is kind of what we want right? it means the economy is strong, or it means there are just a lot of qualified guys retiring and it is getting harder to find the older skilled tradesmen. I agree there has been a lack of apprentices over the time of my career and if investments arent' made in training and employers all want trained guys but dont' want to take on apprentices that's the result. then we bring in offshore people. When you are hiring I guess you are on the downside of that and you have to look harder or pay more to retain good guys.

kind of like the wild west? maybe.. but I guess you just have to do the best you can. I was thinking if you want guys that know lath and plaster maybe you could try to look for now I'm generalizing and I know I shouldn't do that but maybe talk to some cement finishers and see if you can find an older , I want to say" the old italian guy" without being racist.. maybe someone from europe where they see more of that type of finish and know their grout and cement. when I was in Italy it really hit me that these guys sure know their cement and stone work and for some it was passed down through family businesses even here in NA. I've spoken to a lot of them who are really knowledgeable.

Most tradesmen have to cut their teeth somewhere and often that means working for two bit companies until they have enough experience under their belt to get the good stable jobs, whether it be union or not. Im nto saying union guys are better but if you are an empoloyee and you have skills that are in demand youwant ot do the best for yourself and you are going to try to find work that is stable and higher pay.

there has been a real trend here in BC for anti union legislation, now NDP is in and the weight might be shifting to the other foot a little. I sure saw a lot of problems with our heath care system getting too privatized. where I have really had the chance to observe it is with the care homes and ridiculously poorly skilled care aids, often ESL not able to communicate or understand properly and it really hits home for me because I have spent so much time dealing with serious issues for my parents. My dad reached the end of his life last year and mom is in the same care home. it was great whe we admitted them and was union. they had constant staff that had worked there for 20 years or more and they had built relationships with them all. Then they said hey we can save money and hire a subcontractor and all we do is pay the subcontractor and they look after hiring and firing and arrange staffing..
Then over a year or so, they kicked the union out and the place went to hell. they shut down the arts room , my mom is a weaver, it would help her a lot to be busy. the care aids cant' talk to her properly because they are running them through the training without a good command of English to start with so they miss so much and when they get on the job they can't communicate properly which is crucial in that job. she need consistency in the people around her, she builds a relationship of trust and then they are gone and oh its' a new care aid this week and another next week and the managers and care coordinatorsa and all are flocking to get out of the place or even just pushed out. this created a huge amount of stress for the workers, and it left her without adequate care. the food is horrible and I feel sorry for my mom. showers once a week if they are lucky. there are privatized care homes and they are extremely expensive and often wont' take people when they get to a certain level of disability.
Moving an elderly parent to a different care home when they are old and weak and maybe mentally unstable isn't always the best for them either.. We have a lot of issues like that here now and from what i have seen we've had a steady decline in the infrastructure. Hopefully a change in government here in BC can make a difference but these things just don't happen overnight. Im really hoping to see a law that says they have to take people on full time after a certain number of hours and then they cant' just keep hiring and firing and keeping people running around without things like medical and dental benefits. the more private industry filters in the worse it gets because it turns into a money making business rather than a necessary part of our infrastructure.. We will see how Trudeau does with his election promises to increase spending on infrastructure from my seat, I'm not seeing the signs, yet anyway. but at least we do still have some sort of health care system.