Window restoration for Manalto

[Gothichome]

"I'd settle for a recommendation from an amateur."

Manalto, nothing technically hard about restoring windows. Just takes patience, my best advice would be take your time. The speed will come later.
We all go about it a little differently, the pro's here have It down to an art form, as a handy kind of guy I take a more practical approach.

To pull the sashes, remove the interior stops (the pieces on the side keeping the window in from falling out). At this point you can remove the lower sash. Most probably the sash cord has broken so it should come out with little effort.

Next step (this can be a little tricky) remove the parting bead (the strip between the lower sash and upper sash. This is usually a bit of a fight. What ever is holding the upper sash in place, whether it be paint, still attached to its weights,or screws /nails. You must figure out. The proper way to remove the parting beads if for the upper sash to be pulled down you can then(usually) remove the bead from its slot starting at the top gently pry it out at the top and slowly work it out working down. Once you get to the bottom of the upper sash you will be tempted to twist or pry harder to get it by the meeting rail. Do not do this, start the same paying procedure from the bottom and work your way up to the top sash. At this point your parting bead will be free of the slot both above and below the top sash. To remove the bead pull up on the bead wiggling it out from behind the meeting rail. Do the same on the other side. It's just that easy, YA, RIGHT! After a hundred years or more of paint and what ever it never is text book easy. You will have to be creative. At a certain point it just becomes more efficient to break the parting bead at the meeting rail and make a new one.
Any how, once you have determined what is holding up your upper sash you should be able to wiggle it free and out of the frame. There you go, two sashes leaning up against your wall. One caution, once free from what ever is holding the upper sash in place it will want to fall, you don't want that. If you have a helper have them hold the now free window to prevent this, if not you can nail a couple blocks on either side of the frame to hold it from falling. The restoration can now begin.

[Manalto]

Thank you, Ron, for taking the time to write this out for me, so clearly. Much appreciated!

[GibsonGM]

Once you have the sashes out, they need to be *restored*. Ok, there are a few approaches to this, Manalto...this is one of the most individualized things you can do to your house! We could start an argument here, ha ha! Some people just knock off loose glazing and patch it up...leading to me swearing my head off at them 10 yrs. later...

To completely restore, the way that Jade and other real window shop pros do, generally requires removing the glazing (heat gun, usually), then the glass and cleaning it and stripping all of the paint from the sashes, repairing anything broken...treating them with blopentine, oil prime, bedding the glass and glazing, top-coating with paint..an extensive do-over. Don't quote me on all those steps, each pro shop will have their own methods. A real lasting job will take 2 coats of paint over it all when done.

To do a 'partial', which is what I do most of the time, you'd remove the glazing, check the points, scrape spalling paint (and/or use a stripper like Citri-strip), sand, clean glass, prime rabbets (blo), oil prime, glaze, top coat twice. This method doesn't require glass removal, and focuses on failing paint or areas that are too layered (too 'thick' or which have runs and look nasty). I don't paint the sides of the sash, nor the bottom edge...I was taught that a window can 'breathe' better if untreated. This way still shows much of the age of the window (character); it doesn't take it down flat (unless you want to, of course)...but they are solid and will last.

There IS a point where you have to do more of a real resto, tho...based on how bad the sashes are. Pics of yours will be appreciated! Like, if the bedding is gone, might as well go further as you'll have the glass out. If so, mark each piece of glass w/a sharpie so it goes back in the same place! Sometimes they were cut tight...

It seems like an enormous undertaking when you're starting, but after a while you get used to it and learn to do them in batches. Once the old glazing is out and the sashes are mucked out (scraped, sanded), it's a piece of cake! There are many good videos about this on Youtube..."glazing old windows" etc. The biggest hassle is probably keeping your shop clean - mucking them out in one location (outside maybe), and cleaning up after so it's not everywhere...(lead paint dust etc...need an approved lead dust respirator while stripping). Hence the 'batches'. I'm a painter, so I have a HEPA vac (not a household one...) to clean this crap up with.

Order up and use some Sarco glazing putty from Abatron...don't use DAP. We all have/did...it doesn't hold up as well...only thing it (DAP) has going for it is that it's stocked in hardware stores. When using a heat gun to remove glazing, you hold (..prop up..use a dowel or stick in the hole....) a 6" or bigger taping knife at about a 45 degree angle against where the glazing meets the glass, to keep the glass from cracking. Move the heat gun (set on low!) and this 'shield' back and forth til the glaze gets soft...stay in 1 place too long, glass will crack. You'll get a feel for it, and will see it in vids on Youtube when you go searching. Try not to chew up the wood as you remove the glazing - let the heat do its job. I use a flexible putty knife to slide in UNDER the glaze where it meets the glass to avoid damaging the rabbet. Can take some time...remember, as you strip, you'll knock out glazing points..so as you tip the sash to dump the junk off, you can tip out a pane of glass onto the floor!!

I hate the 'easy to install' glazing points that look like an arrow. I prefer the flat 'diamonds'...you can set them as far in as you like, as opposed to the other kind that have a set "reveal"...sometimes they stick into your 'view' from the other side and force you to go around them when glazing which leaves a bump (unsightly; will cause swearing). I set points with a 5-in-1 tool on edge; others have other ways they like to do it. Your eventual glaze line should be a hair behind the inside of the rabbet shoulder, so you don't see glazing and paint from inside when done.

Need:
Sarco Type M glazing compound
flexible metal putty knife
5 in 1 tool
Very small scraper (1" or so) to CAREFULLY clean rabbet at end of glazing removal
bunch of diamond points, put them in a pill bottle or something or they go everywhere
heat gun (2 speed usually, 600F or so, 1100F on high)
6", 9" taping knives or other shield for glass (can use sheet metal)
sandpaper (80 grit; maybe 120 to finish). Never touch sandpaper to glass, EVER or you'll be sorry.
quality scraper
small needle nose pliers (to pull old points)
green scrubbie for glass cleaning
lots of clean rags and Windex (or ammonia + water, I use that a lot...not too strong tho), paper towels
Utility knife blades (100 pack) - single-edge razor blades s@ck now so I use these to clean class and get glazing off it.
Decent quality boiled linseed oil (quart)
" " turpentine (qt.)
Good oil primer ex. ben moore, sherwin williams
dusting brush (cheap 2 1/2" or 3" house brush)
1" china brush for linseed oil etc.
Quality sash brush. I use 1 1/2" Purdy for topcoating, and an old one for oil priming
Flat blade and phillips screwdrivers for hardware removal
Maybe some powdered joint compound for 'whiting' after you glaze

Probably a few more things you could use, but that should get you going! I had some time this AM, can't get on Facebook due to computer error, LOL. Hope this is helpful! Get us some pics!

[Manalto]

The bottom sash on my (6/1) windows has a rabbet on the sides and bottom rail, but a groove in the top rail to accommodate the single pane glass. In doing my restoration, a put bedding putty down on the three sides before installing the glass and glazing afterwards, but nothing at the top.

Am I supposed to put anything in the groove at the top (bulb weatherstrip? felt?) before inserting the glass?

[GibsonGM]

Do you have a pic, James? Any evidence of something being in the groove in the past?

I am inclined to think 'yes', but if it was visible that might tell us something. Can't picture a window that would not have bedding on each side...that that may be the case here...

[Manalto]

Unfortunately, it's in Alabama, I'm in Connecticut, and I didn't take a photo. (But my understanding is that this was not an unusual design in the early 20th century.)

In the bottom sash, the upper edge of the glass fits into a 3/16" slot that's about 1/4" deep and the full width of the sash, of course. I saw no evidence that there was previously anything in this slot to form a seal (in any of the 3 panes that I replaced). I was tempted to put an extremely thin strip of felt in there, thinking it would compress and reduce possible drafts. I thought to ask here on the forum what I should do (rather than re-invent the wheel) but I was running out of time, so put it together with nothing at all in that "slot." (I don't know the correct term. You can't call it a rabbet because it's in the center. "Dado" is the best I can come up with.)

[GibsonGM]

It does sound like you're doing it right, IMO. There would be evidence of putty in there if that was how it was done. As you're glazing it anyway, I wouldn't be worried about air leaks, so no felt. Just some blop ahead of time, maybe.

The bedding is really to keep things stable, keep condensation out of the wood (lets you paint up onto the glass, sealing the rabbett), and it looks like you have 3 sides that will be bedded? Water runs downhill, etc. Is that 'dado' offset a little, to allow for the bedding on the other 3 sides?

I think you have it figured out...I wouldn't try to 'do more', just to do what the old timers did when they built them...my 2 cents.

[heartwood]

you guys are a wealth of info and help!!

a quick note on the meeting rail groove of the bottom exterior sash...'bed' it with putty as you do the other three surfaces...install the glass, at an angle, into the groove and set the glass...make certain the remainder of the groove is filled with putty...
and there you have it.......
....jade

[GibsonGM]

Boom, I stand corrected Can you take a pic of this as you do it, James? Never seen that before; or if I have, I never recognized it as something 'different'.

[awomanwithahammer]

The bottom sash on my (6/1) windows has a rabbet on the sides and bottom rail, but a groove in the top rail to accommodate the single pane glass. In doing my restoration, a put bedding putty down on the three sides before installing the glass and glazing afterwards, but nothing at the top.

Am I supposed to put anything in the groove at the top (bulb weatherstrip? felt?) before inserting the glass?

James, I have the same thing in my windows. One sash (can't remember if it's the top or bottom) has a groove in it that faces down when the sash is installed. The glass opening is slightly smaller than the rest, but the same size glass fits into it if you slide it into the groove first. I have been filling the groove with putty before installing the glass. Then scrape the putty off flush on both sides of the glass. That's the way they were originally done, but then again, on several of my windows there wasn't even a setting bed of putty on any of the panes!