Shellac Suitable for Floors?

[Corsetière]

So I am getting close to refinishing the stairs and wondered if it is ok to use shellac to refinish the stair treads and the floors or do I need something more heavy duty? I don't have kids or dogs so it's not going to take a ton of abuse and I think I will use a runner on the stairs and carpets on the floors in general...

[1918ColonialRevival]

It can be, but personally I'd use something like Waterlox or something that's a little more durable. It may be fine for lower traffic areas, but if you are moving furniture or something, it can be easily damaged. Also, if you make a mistake a drip some aftershave or something else containing alcohol on it, it will dissolve.

By all means I'd stay away from poly! It didn't really come around until the 1950s or so, plus if something happens that the floors needed to be refinished again down the road, refinishing a surface that was finished in poly and getting it to look good can be tricky.

[Mick_VT]

I was very pleased with the Rubio Monocoat that I put on my hard maple floor - exceptionally easy to apply and can be walked on after one day. It is a matte finish so would be very good on stairs IMO

[phil]

you could just use oil. I did on my stairs and it took a few coats to match the floors which are poly over danish oil. the reason I didn't go with poly on the stairs is because I was concerned it might be more slippery than the oil and mine are quite steep. I think actually they are still just as slippery. if I want to poly them I still can.

stairs are easy to access so you won't have to empty the room to recoat every six months or so that perhaps lends itself well to an oil which will need maintenance.

polyurathanes came out in the 30's not the 50's so depending on the age it might be actually authentic. when poly hit the market people threw out the floor dressing machines and typically it lasts many years without needing refinishing so I wouldn't discount it so fast, and it's easy to recoat , just clean it, scuff sand and recoat. its a lot tougher and that's why it replaced the older types in most homes once it gained popularity.

if it were me I'd go with danish oil and then do some coats over the next while to try to get a few coats on before you lay the runner.

I'm about to do my living room and for sure I will use danish oil a few coats and then 3 coats of poly. they are sanded now so they will be thinner and perhaps not sandable more times. so I want a finish that will look good and last the rest of my lifetime. Poly is a much more durable finish , the oil is easy to work with. shellac is likely what it had but it depends on the age.

if you use shellac then you shouldn't really wet mop but with poly you can since it protects from moisture. usually shellac floors were maintained with the floor buffer machines using floor wax to try to protect the earlier more fragile finishes. but if you have poly you wont' need to do any of that. poly floors dont' need to be waxed.

if you drink or like to have parties then the alcohol can be an issue as it will dissolve the shellac. shellac also scratches easier. but each one has pro's and cons.

if you choose poly you can go with water based or oil based. I'd pick the oil based stuff. I'm not sure if you can recoat the water based type. also the floors come out a warmer color with the oil based ones, they allow the floor to continue to darken after sanding but the water based ones might have some UV blockers that prevent natural darkening from sunlight.

If you sand and recoat. I'd try to allow some time for them to see sunlight. if you cover with carpet you will create a shadow. that might not be an issue and it would eventually correct itself, but they wont' darken as much under the rug.

wheather you go with poly dainish oil, linseed oil tung oil or a product like the monocoat you will have the choice of a tint. If you sand the stairs they will be lighter. so you can use tints to help darken them back up without waiting for that to happen naturally. I'd just go in very very weak coats and many coats not just one or two.

if you use oil it hardens the floor , it hardens the wood so that's why i use it under the poly these things combine to make a tougher floor. the oil pops the grain and gives me a preview so if I see defects I can still work on them and when Im happy with the color and the look I seal it in. many just put poly or shellac on thewood so part of it depends how much work you are prepared to do.

if you use poly I'd avoid shoes for a couple days but you can walk on them in a day with socks or bare feet. it takes a couple of weeks to really cure to a hard finish so avoid sliding heavy furniture and such.

some things stink more than others. the way I see it , dont' care but some will base choices on that as well.

your floor, your choice.
Phil

[Corsetière]

if you drink or like to have parties then the alcohol can be an issue as it will dissolve the shellac. shellac also scratches easier. but each one has pro's and cons.

Phil

ha ha! oh, yes, this could be an issue at my house. I did not even consider that!

Do you think I will have an issue matching the garnet shellac finish in a danish oil?

[phil]

they are two different animals. dainish oil , tung oil , linseed oil , they soak into the wood and fill pores. as the pores fill it produces a smooth surface. this is a wood finish but it is in the top surface of wood not on top of it.

you can do a few coats and then add more using wet or dry sandpaper. doing this releases tiny wood particles and they re-imbed if they find their way into the porosities. the first coat of oil soaks in the most so it is recommended to let the first coat dwell for alf an hour or so then wipe it all off.

for the first coat I suggest using clear oil with no tint. the reason is because if you have marks, scratches, imperfections in the grain, the oils will want ot soak into these areas and that can enhance the flaws.

after one or two coats of clear you can then use tinted oils. you can get dainish oil in colors, or you can add some oil based stain to the oil. Now since clear oil has alreday penetrated the flaws they will absorb less and won't be amplified as much. that third coat will be applied the same ast the rest. wipe it on , then wipe all you can off after working it around a little. then it needs a bit of time before accepting more. If you keep doing this you can gradually darken or make it more red for example. you ave close control of the color but I would do it in stages , this avoids the streakiness you get from stains. you can darken slightly to imitate what it would look like if it were well cared for, that woudl still be darkened somewhat.

the beauty of finishing things tins way is that the oils enhance the beauty of the grain but since they aren't sitting on top of the surface, the pigments aren't hiding the lovely grain patterns. most wood has some ribbon , whan you walk by and look at the wood from different angles it has sort of a hollographic effect and it glints and reflects the light. You but it see it a lot of things like curly maple , less on straighter more boring woods like pine. one way to describe it is you can "see into" the wood.

the oils do add protection you create a harder surface within the top layers of wood and the oils do dry hard, it isn't like motor oil that never dries. danish oil may have some varnish in it and some dryers to help it dry up and I guess there is a little bit of a coating but it isn't thick.

varnishes, shellac, laquer , polyurathane , these are coatings that sit on top of the wood and form a hard shell. doing both protects the wood further as you harden it below the surface and above the surface you have a protective shell. you cna have both if you choose and it won't hurt if you do an oil coating and then two years later clean it and do another coat and then put a topcoat on.

you can put tints in your topcoat or buy it that way. you can get shellac in a number of shades or you can add pigments. you can add oil based stain to poly or you can buy it tinted. You can add lacquer based toners to lacquer. all of these work the same way. the pigments sit on top of the wood. this can look OK but it masks the reflectivity that you are seeing in the wood itself. it hides the ribbon in the grain.

myself If I finish wood , as soon as it is sanded and ready I put some dainish oi on it. bare wood has a very fragile surface so if you walk on it and lay foot prints or scuff it and then put your finish on top you can lock those flaws in the coating forever.

in sanding floors usually an edger is used on the edges, to get near the wall. it has wheels and rolling it can make a pattern where they had run. You wont' see this on the bare wood but when you apply your finish it will pop out. so if I put oil I look for flaws like that. if they need more sanding no problem I justsand more and do more oil and it wont' show, but if you go and put shellac or poly you'd have to take it off to access the wood underneath it.

so I find doing it this way gives me sort of a preview and a chance ot correct flaws that bug me. when I am happy with the color and the look of the wood with the oil on the topcoat just locks it in and the floor is protected by the hard shell.

If it is speed you are after. if you hire guys to come in and do it over a weekend they won't have the time to do this sort of work, they will say ok we will finish the floor then sand it then put a finish on and they are done. yOu wouldnt' want ot hire them to come back in a week then in two weeks and a month and two months to do alll these subsequent coats of oil but you as a homeowner can. so you can get a better finish but it's work.

sanding tears the grain a bit. scrapers cut like a plane. often I will sand the floors and then hand scrape. this flattens the floor more. the more flat and perfect it is the better finish you can put on top. when you run the sander, it is heavy so it can push boards down and they spring back up after it passes. so you may have some slight variations in hieght even though it is all sanded , with a hand scraper it will "find" the high spots and you can level out imperfections before you put oil on and you can still work on the floor if things jump out.

now there is another part. they aren't tabletops they are floors. they are made to be walked on. fir is soft enough so it can dent. the top coats won't prevent a dent if you drop a soup can from the counter. you will get scratches from normal use and dents all over eventually even tiny ones. so you can finish the floor with a "piano" finish and then you may find it is too perfect because you'll see those dents more on a more perfect surface. You've probably seen pubs with an oak floor and it is dented and scratched and darkened so much that it is really hard to make marks that stand out because it has so much patina or the patina might be created intentionally. Distressed is the term. any ribbon or beauty in the wood is hidden.

some take their shoes off and never wear shoes in the house. some have big parties. some have big dogs and don't trim the claws or kids that want to stomp around. so I think the way you use the floor might have an impact on the kind of finish you want. but if you start with a coat of oil as you sand, well that's what I would do but there really is no right or wrong just make a decision based on the look you wan tand the materials you likke and the length of time you want to work on it.

the other aspect in finishing is do you fill every nail hole and crack. if the floor has big gaps because the wood shrunk it might never go back so you can fill some. If you fill them all and humidity changes the floor can squish together , buckle.. I have a rule of thumb. if the crack is bigger than a credit card I fill it but I leave the smaller ones. those in areas where their houses see big humidity changes might want to keep the cracks larger. the flooring does move. sometimes you can see nails pop from the constand and very tiny movements of the floor , they can push the nails right out sometimes.
I like to be able ot sweep the floor without the big cracks. filling the cracks also takes time and the most important thing it so learn to mix your filler by adding pigments so you can adjust it where you put it. floors aren't the same color throughout. If you can blend colors that mimic the wood colors you can hide the putty really well. if you fill areas that dont' need filler and use a color.. Even if you match the color perfectly you can see that where the filler is is a constant tone , but where the wood is there is grain and differences. You can apply putty in ways that help hide it one way is to scratch lines that run the direction of your grain and then fill the scratches with a different color of putty, so you can get artful and hide all the flaws this way too.

one reason I sand and then apply oil right away is it gives a bit of a finish to stop the bare wood from getting marked and dirty so if I were doing the stairs I'd do one step and when happy I'd do the oil , then I'd do the next step. that way you aren't trying to prevent someone walking up the stairs for fear of their footprints in your nice work.

another thing about finishing floors is cleanliness. If you want to lay poly for example you will pad it on with a lambswool pad at the end of a broom handle and there is technique to apply it evenly so you dont' have stroke patterns. If you have bits of wood dust and sandpaper grit or even the odd hair on the floor it will get trapped in the finish. when I do the oil I am wiping it on and off and applying the first coat and the dust is not an issue, it also leaves a surface that I can clean really well before I put more finish on top. when I am working on my wood parts I am not always in a clean room environment and wiping on oil works fine , a little dust wont' bother me in doing that so I find it works for me that way too.

ultimately I htin kthe choices you make on how you want ot finish are up to you. I have worked hard to find ways that work for me but that might not at all reflect the end result you desire or the lenght of time you wish ot put into it. I think its good if we can inform you ofd what we like and others will have opinions too and you should take a little from everyone and pick the one you like best for you.

If you do use oil based poly. the difference with the satin or flat finishes is a powder they can add called "blush"
the place I buy it - mohawk finishing supplies has a really good guy that knows his stuff so I pick his brains. he showed me I can buy gloss and add the blush or I can simply buy satin and dont' stir it , just take the top off. the blush settles to the bottom. or you cna buy it separately for consistency. dont' put satin or flat finishes down until the last coat, they will only block the ribbon. the last coat deternmines the level of gloss. some dont' know how to apply it and it can pool or be uneven and the results can look "plastic" this is because they didn't have good control of the application. You can get the look you want but perfect takes more time.

with poly it is a hard surface so it's tough. usually I do three coats one day and that's a long day as there is some dry time between. these coats lock together through chemical bonding at a microscopic level. if you let that floor cure you can scuff sand and redo but those coats will stick the same way paint does. it isn't' a chemical bond it's a mechanical bond.

before it is cure poly is soft like plastic, it's hard ot sand but you can wet sand it using wet or dry sandpaper soaked in solvent. you can use the same solvent as the finish is made with , it will not re-dissolve. the solvent stops the soft material from balling and clogging the sandpaper. I also do a very light scuff sand between coats to pick up any "pips" - bits of dust causing tiny bumps.

shellac and lacquer work differently. If you put shellac or lacquer on top of previous coatings of the same they WILL dissolve in the alcohol or lacquer thinners and the subsequent coats will meld in to form the same material only thicker. You can mess it up or that can go really well but all things take practice. oil based or latex paint acts like the poly, more coats of paint will stick well but they aren't uniting chemically. they are coating over and the base isn't dissolved. the bonds are mechanical. that's why a scuff sand and cleaning is always important for a good bond.
Lacquer paint is the same as lacquer on the floor , same thing it will melt in to form a thicker layer not another layer. this causes some differences in how you can apply and work with each material hopefully with happy success.
lacquer isn't used on floors so much but it's used a lot on antiques and cabinetry. Just like shellac it can get affected by alcohol spills. one reason production factories like lacquer it dries fast o you can spray a few coats, build a finish and send the item out the door quickly. if you have an antique with lacquer you would probably use coasters and get angry when people set drinks on it. on something like a kitchen table a tough coating you can wipe off every day with water is nice, so you could use poly but there are lots of tables that have lacquer. Id' say have the dining room lacquer but then use place mats and tablecloths but that isn't' a suitable table for three young children who make a lot of spills for example.. so I think what you put on floors might reflect how you live and entertain as well as the look you desire. I have a hard time taking my shoes off every time i go in and out so poly works well for me. If i have some gravel in my shoe it won't easily scratch. not that it inst' possible but it is much harder wearing. the oil is easily refreshed and shellac can also be re-combined.

If you want to remove poly it is tough to get off you pretty well have to sand through it , strippers wont' work unless it is fairly fresh but you can just wash off shellac or lacquer if you soak a rag in lacquer thinners. I wouldn't refinish an antique table with poly but floors , well I think it depends on how you weight in on all the different factors. I know I kind of rambled but I think it helps to understand all these concepts then you can choose what works best for you.

Phil

[Gothichome]

Corsettier, 140 year old shellac, don't know if has been re shellac' , if so this would have been done in 1964.

[phil]

That's exactly what I meant by the distressed look. a few more scratches wont' make a big difference and in some ways a floor like that is less to worry about than a refinished floor. keep your shoes on , it's fine! there are also ways to distress the floor if that's the sort of look you are after. this floor is edge grain and it looked like the original pics are flat grain unless I'm confusing my posts. edge grain stays flatter but flat grain shrinks in some areas more and causes a more irregular surface. note that this floor is still in good shape other than the finish. and the patina might be considered desirable depending on opinion. it is pretty fine grained wood. I bet if you count the lines per inch and think about how fast that tree was growing it was crowded and might grow an inch in 30 years or something like that. - virgin forest.