Antique Cabinet Installation Questions

[Willa]

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I bought these cabinets before I even had a house to put them in. These are the pics from where they came from, which show how they were installed. Obviously I could not understand why the homeowner would want to get rid of them !

I had a carpenter remove them. The beadboard backing was very brittle when it was removed, and most of it splintered and could not be saved. They appeared to have been all one piece, but to fit them in the mover's truck then storage unit I needed to separate the uppers from the lowers.

I don't have the wall space in my kitchen to have both runs installed, so one section will go in the adjacent dining room, then the other in the kitchen. The kitchen reno will be major, so I thought I would get the section installed in the dining room first. This way I can displace the kitchen cabinet contents there, while the awful kitchen is dismantled.

I talked to a local fancy-pants carpenter who quoted me a whopping $ 2000 - 3000 to have each run installed. He charges $ 35.00 an hour - so I don't know what he would doing to use up these hours ? The carpenter who removed them now lives a couple of hours away, and is balking at making the trip to install them due to the travelling time involved.

I have called around about finding appropriate beadboard backing. Wood boards - not sheets.

Can an experienced carpenter advise regarding the proper installation method ? As it is now:

- the uppers and lowers are separate pieces
- there is no backing on the uppers or lowers
- there are no crossbar pieces (terminology ?), like you would use to hang uppers

I thought that the beadboard could be nailed to the upper's shelves, on the backside. It appears the original beadboard was 3/4" thick. I have all the trim for where the beadboard met the lower cabinets. Then the uppers would be attached to the wall through the beadboard. Is this correct ?

Questions - would the beadboard have originally run from the floor of the cabinets to the crown moulding ? Or would have the backing for the lower cabinets been less good wider planks, etc. ? I wasn't there when the cabinets were removed, so I have no clue what the backing for the lowers was.

Insights and advice ?

* edit* These are BEFORE pics, before they were removed.

[SkipW]

How were the uppers separated from the lowers? It looks as though the side panel is one piece, was it cut or were they dismantled? You 'should' be able to tell if the bead boards went to the floor by the back of the lowers or the counter top (i.e.: inset from the back of the side panels)

3/4" edge and center bead is readily available at just about any lumber yard or even home center, so finding replacement 3/4 stock should not be difficult. No pictures and not knowing how they were taken apart makes it hard to guess, but possibly adding the bead board to the back of the uppers (making an 'upper unit' which is strong and stable and square), leaving excess at the bottom to make up the height between counter top and uppers, installing the lowers and then basically sitting the uppers on the installed lowers would be a pretty straightforward way to reassemble the unit. You could then certainly attach by going through the 3/4 stock, as long as it is firmly attached to the cabinet frames. But then I really am guessing as to what you have in front of you.

This is a very brief summary of one option, I'm sure you will get others.

[Willa]

Since I wasn't there to watch the removal I am not sure how the uppers were removed from the lowers ? The panel that was the outermost side of the cabinets was formerly all one piece, which needed to be cut to separate them.

I did call the movers AND the storage unit before any cutting happened. As a one piece, they could not fit into the freight elevator, and exceeded the ceiling height of the truck and storage unit. It seemed less invasive to cut them v.s. dismantling them. No one knew what might happen once they were freed from the wall, if they might shift sideways, etc.

The person who sold them was in the process of kitchen renovations, so I did not want to be underfoot gawking at the removal. I had previously used the carpenter who removed them, and trusted his judgement and abilities.

[Lily left the valley]

Since I wasn't there to watch the removal I am not sure how the uppers were removed from the lowers ? The panel that was the outermost side of the cabinets was formerly all one piece, which needed to be cut to separate them.

I did call the movers AND the storage unit before any cutting happened. As a one piece, they could not fit into the freight elevator, and exceeded the ceiling height of the truck and storage unit. It seemed less invasive to cut them v.s. dismantling them. No one knew what might happen once they were freed from the wall, if them might shift sideways, etc.

The person who sold them was in the process of kitchen renovations, so I did not want to be underfoot gawking at the removal. I had previously used the carpenter who removed them, and trusted his judgement and abilities.

The upright side pieces on either end, did they cut them in half because of the height issues as well? I guess my concern is how much they structurally supported the upper piece overall--especially because the wall where they were obviously did not extend the full depth. If they were structural, dismantling might have been kinder, though you'd want to have documented that well so the remantling would go better. I think in my head, I just can't picture (from the pictures) how you could do the support for the uppers on the wall without it possibly causing overall lost space issues behind due to the beadboard backing.

Where they made the cut if they did also may fall into play as to piecing them back together.

I'm in agreement with Skip that I want to know if the beadboard was inset, in a channel, flush to the back or what.

I'm not one to time my projects, and without seeing the parts as they are now, I couldn't even begin to guess whether the estimate you got was accurate or not.

Oh, and I can think of a few reasons why someone would remove these...but none of them are nice or polite.

Good on you for getting them! They are wonderful. Please keep us posted on the progress as time allows.

[Willa]

The uppers were split with a horizontal cut at the side pieces which were a solid piece of wood (see pics). This was at countertop level. As far as I can tell there was no other integral joins, except for possibly continuous beadboard backing ? There is a space at the back that shows the ghost of where the beadboard was. If they were attached to the wall without beadboard there would be a 3/4" gap at the back of the shelves (don't know if I am explaining this correctly ?).

The house they came from was impressive, from the turn of the century. It had been expensively renovated several times. The kitchen's most recent renos seemed late 1980's - with a two story floor to ceiling window. The kitchen in the before state was about 450 square feet. Minus the butler's pantry it would be about 600 square feet. The sellers were really nice, and I got a great deal. Mostly they were concerned the cabinets would go to someone who would appreciate them. I almost had an aneurysm when I saw them posted on CL - and I was the first person to call about them, and I lived close by. I could not believe my good fortune - even though I had no clue about what house where, when. I had to size up to a larger storage unit and move all the contents. I figured that even if I had to store them for a year, they were still a bargain compared to Ikea cabinets. Except for the mercenary carpenter part - that would not be a bargain.

[Lily left the valley]

The uppers were split with a horizontal cut at the side pieces which were a solid piece of wood (see pics). This was at countertop level. As far as I can tell there was no other integral joins, except for possibly continuous beadboard backing ? There is a space at the back that shows the ghost of where the beadboard was. If they were attached to the wall without beadboard there would be a 3/4" gap at the back of the shelves (don't know if I am explaining this correctly ?).

The house they came from was impressive, from the turn of the century. It had been expensively renovated several times. The kitchen's most recent renos seemed late 1980's - with a two story floor to ceiling window. The kitchen in the before state was about 450 square feet. Minus the butler's pantry it would be about 600 square feet. The sellers were really nice, and I got a great deal. Mostly they were concerned the cabinets would go to someone who would appreciate them. I almost had an aneurysm when I saw them posted on CL - and I was the first person to call about them, and I lived close by. I could not believe my good fortune - even though I had no clue about what house where, when. I had to size up to a larger storage unit and move all the contents. I figured that even if I had to store them for a year, they were still a bargain compared to Ikea cabinets. Except for the mercenary carpenter part - that would not be a bargain.

I do get a better sense of the rear of them from your description, thank you for that. I'm also sure I had imagined correctly how they were cut now as well.

The idea that they were a bargain compared to an Ikea set made me envious, I admit. I know how the "making it work" costs can be with found bits.

At least they had the thought that perhaps someone would really like such instead of sending them to the dump. Kudos to them for that.

[SkipW]

The full side panel not only looked nice, but added much needed structural integrity and prevented the tops from wanting to pull away from the wall under load as they transferred load down to the floor much like a jack stud in a doorway. But, since they were cut 'at counter top height' that makes me think that with the back reapplied and the face frames intact, that they will 'rest' at the correct height and be somewhat self-supporting making it easier for installation.

As mentioned above, the separation of the uppers and lowers actually might have made reinstallation easier because you are dealing with two more manageable parts. Having the lowers separate allows you to set and level the bases prior to adding the uppers. Unless you have the space and manpower, I think this would be easier that trying to reassemble the entire unit and install. All the trim the trim pieces you have should cover all joints with exception of the new cut to the side panels which could be covered and aged to look like an original seam.

[Willa]

The logistics of getting the unit as a whole out of the house seemed possible, since the scale was pretty grand - but then getting the 8.5' x 8' unit anywhere else would be a challenge. Not to mention the weight with the backing attached.

Having separate halves is more manageable to contend with, all around.

I met with a much more reasonable contractor yesterday about some house things. After I explained what I wanted, with regards to the cabinet installation, it seemed we were on the same page, fingers crossed.

[1918ColonialRevival]

I agree with SkipW's comment above. Since they have been separated, make sure the top half is anchored well into the wall studs at multiple points. Since the sides were cut, it won't have the structural integrity that it had when it was one piece.

Also, individual tongue and groove pine boards can be procured from a good lumberyard (not Lowes/Home Depot type places). Be advised that they may be a different size or thickness than the originals if any of them survived. To get a uniform look, you may have to replace all of them.

[Lily left the valley]

The logistics of getting the unit as a whole out of the house seemed possible, since the scale was pretty grand - but then getting the 8.5' x 8' unit anywhere else would be a challenge. Not to mention the weight with the backing attached.

Having separate halves is more manageable to contend with, all around.

I met with a much more reasonable contractor yesterday about some house things. After I explained what I wanted, with regards to the cabinet installation, it seemed we were on the same page, fingers crossed.

This is great news, Willa.

I really hope it comes together beautifully as a finished product for you.