Dealing with Calcimine Paint ?

[phil]

Nothing wrong with restoring the plaster !
You can fix a few holes , either with drywall or you can use other products like the epoxy stuff people have been using , or cut the patch to the studs on either side and make a neat patch if it is a larger area. I'd get the paint and paper off then and you can see better what you are up against and if the plaster is all cracked or if it's ok.

[Kashka-Kat]

As for me - Im amazed that people would consider knocking out all plaster, removing trim without breaking it, maneuvering and attaching big honkin sheets of drywall, taping, mudding, etc. to be a "quick" fix. It sounds like a hideous monster of a job to me!

If theres one thing I think we can agree on, its that all old houses are different and there is never any one size fits all solution. For the house where plaster has failed in an obvious way - falling down, bowing out in many areas, etc. - then maybe it makes sense but when a house has plaster & lath so firmly adhered that you have to really work at it with chisel and crowbar- then I have to say it doesn't make sense. In between those two extremes you might find a few areas that are really bad where youd do a drywall patch, and just simple repairs for the rest.

Anyway - Willa, by "stuck" areas do you mean its like lumpy on the wall? If most of the surface is smooth except for these stuck places, I would just get a sharp chisel and hammer and just chip them off, removing the mesh, then use patching plaster to repair cracks and fill in any gouges from the chisel or paint removal. My PO did these hideous crack repair jobs using mesh tape and joint compound blobbed on - it looked like the wall was diseased and covered with giant scabs! I would NOT use mesh tape to repair cracks - just widen the crack, paint on bonding agent to the old plaster and lath to help the new plaster adhere to it, fill with plaster flush to the surface.

[Willa]

As with many repairs, I'm expecting the prepping to take 90% of the time compared to the actual fixing. I am scraping off as much of the surface paint as I can to expose the calcimine layer. The bottom pink layer seems like it really soaked into the plaster while I suspect the following blue layer is the culprit for the years of paint failure that ensued.

There are areas of more recent repair that have white joint compound and mesh tape that seem pretty firmly adhered to the plaster below. When I picked at one, one of the mango sized pieces of plaster came away in my hand. The PO's repair solution: crumple up pages from the phone book to fill the void, then stick mesh tape over that, then load it up with lots of joint compound, but don't sand or smooth it.

These walls also look pretty scabby due to the terrible surface solutions that didn't fix the problem below. It's all very strange to me, as the paint scheme throughout the house was complicated, and well cut in. How could giant blobs and smears be ignored ? Even if the PO had skim coated over the troubled area I could kind of understand that ?

Kashka-Kat, I am with you in thinking that drywall isn't a simple or easy solution. I can't even lift a sheet of drywall by myself. Buying it, getting it home, getting it up the stairs, dealing with the dust and mess of knocking out plaster and possibly lathe, removal of baseboards and trim, removing the sink, toilet and tub to access the walls properly, the expense and hassle of disposal of the old plaster seems like a much bigger job.

I've been scraping away at the walls and ceiling for an hour here and there and have gotten about 25% of the walls scraped so far. I'll get some plaster washers for a few areas where the walls and ceiling feel soft. Even if I focussed all my attention on this room, I don't know that it could go any faster. My hands and arms can only take so much scraping in a day. While I'm bathing I have plenty of time to contemplate the next steps, as I am looking right at them.

[phil]

I agree about the mesh tape. I don't like using it. it doesn't' add strength, the problems with paper tape are usually that it isn't' stuck on properly which is why I use glue but any commercial finisher doesn't' want to spend that much time.
I think a lot hinges on whether the wall is insulated or not. If you are planning to do re-siding then maybe you can open the outside, yes you can put it in through holes and whatnot but it's hard to do a good job that way because you cant' see where it hasn't filled. it's not impossible to do, expanding foam is good stuff, it may be more expensive but not necessarily a bad option. If I was going to make holes in the plaster to do spray foam i'd do it now.
I think one might forfeit insulation if they are in the situation where the house has unusual features that make it special enough but for a modern home that you intend to live in that is old but not a museum, it's a living home, not having insulation is not very practical if you are in a northern climate. Maybe its ok in the southern states. I think its worth stepping back and making a decision and then if choosing to restore plaster and forfeit insulation makes the most sense for you then go for it. If on the other hand you really want the insulation then its better to tackle that before doing a lot of work towards plaster repairs. the decision is best made before tackling the project.

using this one as an example the owner already spent as much time as it would take to remove the plaster, so they would be putting new drywall on at this point. but instead they are still trying to get down to bare walls. Once the drywall is installed ( say another day) the time to skim coat and finish isn't' really much different whether it be a bare plaster wall or fresh drywall.

I wouldn't' work on the baseboard where it is. I would remove it myself and anything else in my way like that towel rack. I wouldn't want to be lying on the floor behind the toilet and tub trying to strip the baseboards but if the choice is just to do a quick wipe and repaint then maybe it's less work. when I do it I run the drywall right to the floor and from what i have seen there can be a lot of things like holes in the sill plate or air leaks around the baseboard as there is usually just spacers in there. this air can rise right up the wall and go outside. I prefer to run my drywall right to the floor and seal this up, finish the wall and then replace the trim on top.

Then again I am stripping the wood and I don't' want problems with trying to strip it in place or to paint it and worry about getting paint on the trim. I find it easier to remove it but others may find other techniques they like better or are more suitable to their situation. it's easier to work on stuff like that trim if you can just set it on a table than it is to work on it behind the tub or remove the tub for better access.

I think the point of discussion is more to give the person doing the work some options, perhaps suggest what we would do and point out some pros and cons so they can make their own decision. I don't' think its fair to say oh you should feel guilty about breaking plaster and then make them live without insulation as a result. best to consider the options and let them make the choice they want.. I guess that's kind of what I was trying to point out and it wasn't' my intention to say you have to do it a certain way. Its healthy to offer our different opinions.

I assume this bathroom is on an outside wall on the top floor or it wouldn't have a sloped ceiling. (or is it under a staircase? ) that means there is probably no insulation in that wall and it's probably an exterior wall. the sloped part would then have roofing on the other side. If you insulate that you'd be choosing to go to a "hot roof" the roofing wont' cool as well if it is hot out. the inside of the house may be more comfortable, AC costs would be less but the roofing would have a shorter lifespan. there is a lot to consider. if the roof is old and needs new sheeting then there is an access point that you could use at roofing time to insulate the sloped section but it wouldn't help to get into the wall. the "hot vs cold roof" situation might be entirely different depending if it faces the sun. Also on the point of insulation , it is about heat but also about sound. My house is on a noisy street so I want every bit of insulation not just for heat but also to make it quiet enough to be able to watch TV.. these are important factors. Also lifting and what one is comfortable with taking on. How long you can decommission a room. there are a lot of factors and the best decisions are made with all the details, and while everyone tries their best to give their own advice, the situations we experience are all so different. If this is the only bathroom and there are 6 kids then its probably not practical, but if the house is occupied by a single person and there is a second bathroom then that's already an entirely different situation.

[Willa]

Phil, if you drove by my house today you would see loads of snow on the roof. The attic and eaves are insulated and upstairs is nice and warm. The second story at the back by the bathroom is brick. I won't be siding there.

Unless there is a catastrophic plaster failure yet to be discovered in the bathroom I won't be drywalling it.

[phil]

that makes sense. I think I'd just do what you can to get the walls wet then that stuff should come off easy. you can see what plaster repairs need doing after that. if you work downward from your knife slits then once the stuff starts coming loose gravity and capillary action will help get the water between.

If it's just little spots you can either use drywall mud or replace with a piece of drywall just in that area.

what has worked for me is this :
cut the lath right beside each stud with a Jigsaw. It wont' shake the lath so much as a sawzall. shaking it causes damage. if you have a fine blade it helps too, one for metal is fine, about 32 teeth per inch. If you use a different saw find one that isn't too aggressive.

If you trim it to the inside edge of a stud bay, then nail a short 2x4 against each of the studs where you want the patch.

cut your drywall about 8 inches too big either way.
on the back of this piece, cut the backing paper to 1/4" ;less than the hole size. you want a loose fit.

break the drywall patch, but when you pull the 4" strips off, peel them back, leave the face paper flange of about 4" all around. clean off any remaining bits from the surrounding "flange"

put taping mud on the flange all around, use lots of mud here. putty the edges of your drywall patch. mix glue in the mud if you want.

place your patch against the new studs. Its best if you think about the difference of the thickness of your patch compared to the plaster and lath when you nail those short 2x4 in there. new ones are usually a little smaller than what's there and that helps so you can adjust position to make the surface the same. if it's a little low its ok but try not to make it stick out more than the rest. You can probably use 5/8 or whatever you have on hand.

screw your patch to the studs, then take your taping knife and smooth the face paper flat with your plaster walls. You won;t need any tape. If you did an accurate job of positioning the 2x4's then it will come out perfectly flush and neat. You can skimcoat the whole wall to even it up later on.

If it is just small breaks in the plaster and doesn't warrant a patch like this then you can stuff in either plaster or the glue / mud mix to solidify what's there. Or if you want there is an epoxy product some have been using. If you want you could just use taping mud.

that extra mud you slopped on the back of the drywall will key in like the plaster. you can do a patch like this without going near the studs if you choose. I prefer to get some screws into the wood but if it;s like a doorknob hole you don't' necessarily even need to screw it in place at all if you want to keep the patch small.

likewise , if you wanted to you can add some 2x4 running horizantally if you want. Its actually good as they also act as fire stops if you do get a fire in the wall it wont' travel up there as fast but its not absolutely necessary.

for the hairline cracks I like to put a little taping mud and glue on the wall , then soak the paper tape in 50/50 glue water , then bed the tape down flat to the plaster. again youll skimcoat after so you can hide any tape still showing then. this will stop the plaster from cracking through the paint later. Another approach some have used is to take a knife and scratch into the plaster creating a V notch then fill the crack with plaster and don't use the tape.

if you want the corners to come out nice and square you can get the paper metal corner bead for inside corners. you can get angled stuff that will fit where the roofline meets the wall. I like doing it this way because it's easier to get the corners to look perfect. the corner bead sits just a teeny bit out from the wall. when you skimcoat you can use this to your advantage as you can run the knife along the corner bead instead of the wall. what you are doing is in effect moving the wall surface in but only by the thickness of a credit card. Your wall will have some unevenness so this helps because you are then adding material to get it flat. you can't remove bumps (easily) you can only add material. the corner bead comes for inside or outside corners. dont' use the metal type or the plastic type, the paper/metal stuff is very thin. like the paper tape I just paint it with 50 50 water /glue to make sure it stays put. I use about 4 drywall nails on each corner bead so stays flat to the wall until the stuff dries. I just drive the nails through the paper but beside the metal strip part so the head catches the edge of the metal. If you hit it in so the nail doesn't stick higher than the surface it wont' bother your later.
If you prefer more rounded and out of square corners then you can skip the corner bead. most professional drywallers just use paper tape on the inside corners not corner bead. They usually use the corner bead on outside corners in case it gets bumped. Inside corners dont' get bumped. I don't think you have too many outside corners to contend with so don't buy that kind. the flat walls are easy to skimcoat. the corners are the work. the corner bead I use seems to come in different sizes but for description:

the L shaped metal part is very thin and flat and about 1/2" or 3"4 and L shaped. the paper is about 1 1/2 inches and also L shaped, so the part near the corner is metal and the outside portion is just paper. the paper has little holes to help it adhere to the mud. youll probably fild both inside and outside in the same rack so pay attention to which one you pick up, they look very similar. the metal side goes against the wall. the paper side goes out towards the room.

I suggest using it because I find it easier to do a good job if I use it. plaster walls tend to either crack in the corners or they get built up with paint or wallpaper and go kind of rounded and ugly. the corner bead also adds some strength to help if the plaster is cracked near the corners. before you fit the corner bead take a putty knife or chisel and stab towards the corners to knock off any rounded out stuff. cut it to length and check if it fits tight to the wall before you put mud on it.

if you don't choose to use corner bead when you skimcoat then just try to get one side of each corner nice and let it dry , then do the other side of the corner. It is near impossible to get both sides of an inside corner perfect all in one go so just do one at a time unless you are really good at mudding. Even the pros will tell you to just do one side at a time , it's easier.

You can also get bullnose corner bead if you want rounded corners. I wouldn't do it there but it can look nice in certain places where you want a rounded corner. I think it's becoming more available recently.

if you choose to use the corner bead there are some good Utube videos that will help show how to install it , it/s very easy to work with but harder to describe in type than visually. if you look at my rounded corners thread you'll see some that I have installed recently, before skimcoating.

[Willa]

Phil, what does your reply have to do with calcimine paint ?

[phil]

well you were also talking about fixing your plaster damage. I was only trying to help and it seemed like your questions on the paint were addressed earlier in your thread.

[Texas_Ranger]

Get the biggest paint brush you can find and brush LOTS of water on the calcimine! Then wait 10 or 15 minutes and scrape off what you can. Once you've gotten off most of it you can start washing. I'd recommend using a stiff brush and only wipe off using a sponge. Believe me I know that stuff, it's been used here a lot until very recently, in fact most painters still use something similar (latex with very little binder so it's actually somewhat water soluble)!

[Willa]

How will I know when I have taken enough of the calcimine paint off ? Will there be no color left on the wall, or will there be a certain feel ? Does adding soap or TSP to the water help with removal ? What is there seems like a thin layer. Does it turn into gummy sludge as it is scraped or what ?

(Also very interesting that it or something similar has remained in use where you are. Where is that ? )