Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

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TexasRed
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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by TexasRed »

I'm with you on the shaker cabinet style and subway tile backsplash :romance-heartstiny: Classic and timeless. My favorite look for a vintage kitchen and I love black countertops too. We are considering soapstone when we do our kitchen.

I too had always assumed custom built cabinets were out of the question ($$) for a re-sale house. During our last job I found out (after the fact) how wrong I was. We ordered nice Thomasville cabinets through HD, then hired an old friend to install them. He is a master cabinet maker - never thought to ask him for a quote because of my preconceived opinion of the cost. After he finished installation, he quoted the project just for comparison sake. He came in $2K below what we spent. :doh: It was not because we were friends, this was the pricing he would have bid on any job. My long winded point is - it doesn't cost anything to get an estimate for custom built.

My unsolicited opinion on countertops; it's a gamble putting money into granite, solid surface or any of the other pricy options unless this is a high end home. Especially with off-the-shelf stock cabinets.

Sorry -- still haven't had a shazam moment on your fridge dilemma... :|
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eclecticcottage
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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by eclecticcottage »

The mudroom door is 30" and there is a door-it leads to stairs to the "mudroom" entry and then to the basement. It swings towards the cabinets when opened.

There should be several inches of extra height between the top of a typical fridge and where I plan to cut the built ins for a clean look (leave the top row of doors and cut below that).

It would still leave a "work triangle" with it located there.

Oh, and thank you for the offer on the sink. I think shipping would kill me-you're across the country and a border. I plan to use the upstairs kitchen sink (white porcelain) if possible. It's in perfect condition, it doesn't even look used.

It's funny when I told them what I wanted at the one store, the guy joked with me that I've been watching HGTV, I was like...no...why? I didn't know it was a "thing" now-it's what I wanted in The Old House like 20 years ago (I settled for painting the orange cabinets white and using paint on the counters, but it worked). I like the idea that it's timeless. Nothing like doing the "in" thing like the oak cabinets with brass fixtures that everyone hates now because it's "dated".

I'll have to look around for someone-I think there is a place in the same town, I just have to remember where I saw them! Cabinets as shown are about $2500 with a 10% off available. Wood boxes too. I refuse to go off the shelf from HD or Lowes because they are particle board. My fear with ordering is if one is damaged and it delays the project.

I love, love, love soapstone. Actually I had a sample of the flooring with me when we went and looked at the counters and the stone that looked amazing was marble. I'm getting a quote, but I'm not spending $$$$ on them-they wouldn't give me a square foot cost so I don't know if it was a waste of time or not. It's not a lot of counter, so it might still be reasonable and would be a step up on the faux granite I see a lot for sure. I HATED my tile counters at The Cottage originally, but they are indestructable. I wish I could do that-but I know everyone would feel like me about it so I won't. I would put them in a rental though. Whatever I go with, I don't want the "I cheaped out and went with the faux stone" look. Probably the least likely to be put in is soapstone, just because people don't know what it is-and for the cost, I don't want people to think it's "cheap" lol.

phil
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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by phil »

since the room isn't overly big and you have a separate dining area maybe the fridge location isn't as unworkable as I first thought. You just don't' want to have to keep walking around the table to get to the fridge. You only have so much space to work with and lots is already defined.

no problem about the sink , I thought the same about shipping and I can just advertise mine locally.
You are putting some money into the kitchen and I am sure having a nice one will be make the house more marketable.

If you look for custom cabinets don't overlook the larger outfits that have CNC equipment. I have seen cabinet factories where they start everything with CNC CAD drawings and they can send that to the machinery which can very rapidly cut all pieces appropriately. "Custom" doesn't necessarily have to be done by a little cabinetmaking shop but that may be a good option to consider as well.

Personally I think the resin counters are as nice as stone. I am not sure about the price difference but at least they aren't so cold and hard. I find that stone is like a glass table, every time you put china down it is so hard and so it the china so that "collision" it has a un-natural feel, like placing a glass on a glass table. Maybe it's just me that feels that way. to me it's like running fingers on a chalkboard. Put a hot drink down and come back in 5 minutes and it's cold. I guess another option is the cement ones. I think there have been some interesting and very creative ideas around that, that perhaps you haven't thought about.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=concrete ... 92&bih=723

you'll need a hole for the hood fan unless it isn't a vented one. You might check to make sure you don't have any heavy framing in the way of your route for the vent - and it;ll need a wire.

every outlet in the kitchen needs a separate breaker. the more counter you have the more outlets you need. You might consider the backslash placement when you pick the height.

put a straight edge along the wall to check , if you are removing and replacing cabinets you could find it isn't straight and plumb like your new cabinets. and counters are and it may pay to fix that as opposed to adjusting counter tops and things.

one thing I did that I really like was to put the heat vent in the toe kick in front of the sink. Ive had lots of nice compliments on how nice that feels in the mornings.

now we all recycle new kitchens need room for garbage and recycling and food waste. I don't know if it's all separate there , it is here so it made for a new "feature" pull out bins etc. Where I am they downsized the garbage cans and gave us huge recycle cans so that if you are lazy about recycling you run out of room in the garbage which they only pick up every two weeks. The bins need a place to live.

I guess in floor electric heat is another feature that's becoming quite popular in kitchens with tile floors. I optend for the pull out tap and like it. I didnt' opt for the soap dispenser which is often included in newer kitchens. I figured the pump bottle might die and become a problem but it's a cheap feature to add.

Another feature that's nice is a floor level flap that turns on a vacuum downstairs when it's opened, so you can sweep the kitchen floor into the chute and it goes into the vacuum bag and don't need a dustpan. You can install central vac but also you could just use a vacuum cleaner that's hooked up just for that purpose. Not a necessity obviously but these features can be things for people to like and talk about when they are shopping.

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Lily left the valley
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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by Lily left the valley »

I pulled out some graph paper and tried to see what I could come up with for a 10' x 12' room. (I needed a distraction anyhoo. :P ) I wasn't exactly sure of how big a few things were (widths for trim, den door, built-in, sink) so my notions may be off.

The more I look at that room, the more convinced I am that the fridge was where the heat vent is. If they used to have a monitor fridge, even though it seems odd to have a fridge right over the heat vent, it would be the most likely place. Also, the presence of the outlet there further leads me to believe that the placement of the fridge for the long haul was right there. They may have raised a later model replacement high enough to allow the heater to still blow forward, but I suspect one of the reasons it's beat up like that was the fridge getting pressed against it. They may have even shut that exchange off.

Based on what folks have posted, I came up with three notions. I checked on some measurements for standards, and also worked from the Baker bungalow kitchen too. (Which, by the way, is only 7' x 11'--that includes the built in cabinet/sink.) It has two feet deep counters, so I worked from that for the window wall except for the mud door corner, where I did a curve there to vanity depth. I assumed sink size, with a single 30" wide since I couldn't see enough of the upstairs kitchen sink to tell if it was double or single.

1) If you take Phil's suggestion and move the toe heater to the sink, that will make it easier to put a fridge there as it will stick out less and won't make the fridge work harder, combating the heater. I checked dimensions, and if you're not married to the idea of a side by side doored fridge, there are plenty of fridges--retro or not--that can fit there, although many will overlap the trim. I have no idea what your budget for the fridge is, but following oak's suggestion, here's another source for slim fridges, many of which are taller as well: http://www.thekitchn.com/small-and-cool-small-apartment-110535. You can get cheaper fridges with that narrower footprint, but some buyers may be turned off by the overall size, as they are a more standard height. Although there are benefits to keeping the fridge there, I think you would rather have a wider fridge, and tighter work triangle.

2) I know you're leery of making a permanent island, but consider a dishwasher as a smaller islet. If you want to extend the top longways, I'd round the edges of whatever countertop you go with so parents won't worry about kids and corners. Seating or cabinetry can go under the extensions, possibly even flanked with trash/recycling bins, flour door style, or a possible slide out when door opens style (my dad did the latter for trash on one end of our "breakfast counter" abutting the fridge, putting it in easy distance between sink and stove). I used a 30" wide fridge for the L backing the dining room, which is common unless you aim for the bigger side by side models. You can keep the shorter over cabinets on that wall to keep the line, though you may want a deeper model. There is some wiggle room for a wider fridge, but at cost to the corner cabinetry, and a possible can't open the fridge and oven at the same time issue.

Think of the space between your islet and the built ins as a mini pantry. Our pantry here has only a 32" width walkway (measured from drawer pulls on either side), which for most folks is adequate. If I'm estimating right from the picture, it should be fine for opening the lower built in cabinet doors. (It's also a good excuse to steal a smooch when working near to one another on that side of the room, and with all those appliance plugs, I can see a lot of baking there.)

If you go only that far from built in to islet, it should still give you a comfortable passage between window cabinets and floater/islet. It will also give you enough room to open the dishwasher door all the way without banging into any cabinetry based on the models I looked at. You can lengthen it further, I was just trying to see what a smaller footprint would yeild.

I think I read that you're swapping out the sink anyway, so if you bump that towards the left where the dishwasher was, you can put the stove on the window wall, and the fridge near the dining room door. You should still have room enough that if someone is standing at the sink, and another person enters through the mudroom, the person at the sink will be clear of the mudroom door. I was surprised to find that there are scores of folks who are deliberately putting stoves in front of windows now--I thought it would be a code no-no. You also still have room above the window trim for the hood, in place of the short upper cabinet.

The one possible hiccup with this variant is the light switch by the dining room door. If that is a kitchen switch, the fridge may need to be scooched over if you don't want to move the switch to the other side of the door.

The islet variant was the last I worked out on my rough sketch, so I figured it might help if you could see it, so I scanned it. Out of the three ideas, this turned out to be my favorite. Scale is 1 square = 6", and this was a rough WIP, so nothing is perfectly scaled. I put the islet where I did in case a future owner wants to put a table or baker's rack between the bath/mud doors. I also dashed in door swings I knew dimensions for to get an idea of clearance.
Image

3) Lastly, if you feel you simply must remove some of the built in, I'd take that left most side and reinstall it (with needed framing) in the space between the bath/mud doors. It would help keep a closer work triangle, although the layout wouldn't be as optimal distance wise. If you keep the heater there, you can either leave it in place, or bump it forward just enough to make it a toe kick.

I hope the bird's eye view in the picture helps, no matter what you choose.
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--Currently pondering ways to encourage thoughtful restovation and discourage mindless renovation.

eclecticcottage
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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by eclecticcottage »

I had a friend over last night to help remove some of the plaster debris with a truck. I'm saving dumpster costs by bagging and throwing it out-so he helped bring some back to The Cottage and we put some out at our house and some at the neighbors.

He agreed it made the most sense, space/feel wise in the kitchen.

It is very possible the fridge was on that little wall between the bath and mudroom doors. That has been discussed as a possible former location.

I don't want an island because it is a pain to have to walk around (the stove is kind of in the middle of the room right now)-and putting anything that needs water (sink, dishwasher) means it has to be permenant because of the water lines (side note-my water is now on. Only three leaks so far-woo hoo!).

If I do use the built ins, which is the most likely answer for a good flow, it would be the middle ones. All of the plumbing for the upstairs bathroom runs behind the one to the far left.

I do have a plan for the little space between the doors. I am doing between stud "storage" (I guess the "in" thing for that is a "command center"-basically a place for a calendar, mail, keys, place to keep tabs on kids' activities). I may use those doors for it. I'll have to measure everything. I had planned to use an old screen and make a "chalkboard" for the door, but I think all the ones I have will be too wide. No matter if I do use them or not, they won't be wasted. Actually the one to the far left on the bottom is cracked in half so I would replace that one-and the drawer on one of the middle ones is also broken.

I wanted to put a recessed wall storage into the upstairs bath using space in the attic next to it. I might use one of the doors for that too. Not sure yet. I still need to measure everything to be sure it all fits.

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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by Mick_VT »

Marble is just about the worst material for kitchen countertops because it is not only soft and porous it is also soluable in anything slightly acidic. White granite is a better choice if you want that light color.
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eclecticcottage
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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by eclecticcottage »

I am looking for black counters. And the marble is so not an option-finally got my quote back and it's over $2K. Not happening on this budget. I'll have to look into nice solid surface or other options.

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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by phil »

you could buy a really really nice piece of wood for 2K ! black walnut? ebony trim? hmmm ;-) you could check a local cabinet shop and see what they can get, or a hardwood supplier to see samples. How about letting a cabinet shop glue it up, cut the sink hole, thickness plane and sand it to perfection. I think that would really look special, and you could have real solid wood, not veneer. You wouldn't get the undercounter sink but imagine how the ribbon could stand out with some nice overhead lighting. do a tung oil finish and that could be renewed. To me that would look like a custom kitchen with some class.

Phil

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JacquieJet
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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by JacquieJet »

Mick_VT wrote:Marble is just about the worst material for kitchen countertops because it is not only soft and porous it is also soluable in anything slightly acidic. White granite is a better choice if you want that light colour.


I agree 100%, Mick. When we moved in here, the kitchen had black marble countertops, couldn't have been more than 5 years old, and they were already an eyesore. Coffee cup rings everywhere (etched in), oil stains, even a scorch mark from a hot pot or pan... all permanent. It was literally a surface that you couldn't rest anything on unless it was clean and dry. NOT kitchen appropriate! And I'm sure the PO paid a fortune for it, too. We ended up replacing it with Caesarstone (quartz) and it's a HUGE improvement.
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oaktree
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Re: Fridge placement dilemma opinions welcome

Post by oaktree »

JacquieJet wrote:
Mick_VT wrote:Marble is just about the worst material for kitchen countertops because it is not only soft and porous it is also soluable in anything slightly acidic. White granite is a better choice if you want that light colour.


I agree 100%, Mick. When we moved in here, the kitchen had black marble countertops, couldn't have been more than 5 years old, and they were already an eyesore. Coffee cup rings everywhere (etched in), oil stains, even a scorch mark from a hot pot or pan... all permanent. It was literally a surface that you couldn't rest anything on unless it was clean and dry. NOT kitchen appropriate! And I'm sure the PO paid a fortune for it, too. We ended up replacing it with Caesarstone (quartz) and it's a HUGE improvement.


I put marble on my island in my last house for baking. It was a total disaster. Even if you wipe up acidic things immediately, it etches the surface. And it stains so easily! It's completely impractical, and mine looked bad in just a few months. Getting a marble pastry board is the way to go. Soapstone and engineered quartz are much better choices for both being extremely durable and nonreactive. I have butcherblock right now because I was saving money, but I eventually will get custom shaker or beadboard cupboards and soapstone counters. People have complained about butcherblock being high maintenance, but I think it's actually very easy to keep looking nice and I get tons of compliments. Every few months I put some lavender-scented wax on it, which is actually a really pleasant activity.

I also think you could put a 24" wide fridge between those two doors and just cover the trim a little.
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