Working with exterior wood

[Kashka-Kat]

Have a lot of the paint stripped off of my 100 yr porch and will be doing the abatron thing in some areas. Have tarps stapled up because of rain today - Im very paranoid of the exposed wood getting wet and warped before the finish goes on. Will the abatron liquid wood be adequate protection until paint job happens?

The panels between the posts - these are incredible 20 inch wide cedar panels, all in one piece not spliced together, totally knot free - beautiful wood! What if I was to put on a clear finish instead of paint?
Id still paint the posts and horizontal structural pieces, but just thinking it would be a shame to cover up the beautiful wood panels again with paint.

Bottom line though is protection of the wood - is there any clear finish that would be as durable as paint? And is there anything sort of clear finish that would go on over the abatron liquid wood? (I was thinking of doing liquid wood over the entire surface but maybe thats not needed? Very little wood fill is needed on the panels and those could be tinted wood color) I know theres the various deck stains and such but I think it would have to be bare wood, dont think those will work over abatron.

RE: new wood trim - what kind of wood? Does cedar come in 1 inch boards -only seeing the odd 7/8 inchthickness. Can I clamp and glue 1" boards sandwiching them together,and expect it will hold in an exterior situation - using exterior grade ultimate titebond. Alternative is to rabbet some 2 x 6 which Id rather not do.

[phil]

Have a lot of the paint stripped off of my 100 yr porch and will be doing the abatron thing in some areas. Have tarps stapled up because of rain today - Im very paranoid of the exposed wood getting wet and warped before the finish goes on. Will the abatron liquid wood be adequate protection until paint job happens?

- yes I think so , it's basicly epoxy and that will seal the grain and not allow penetration of water in the areas where it's applied.

"The panels between the posts - these are incredible 20 inch wide cedar panels, all in one piece not spliced together, totally knot free - beautiful wood! What if I was to put on a clear finish instead of paint?"

- sure if you like the look , enjoy it. Its easily reversible if you want it painted for any reason. it's probably originally painted but if you start stripping you'l see if there was a clear finish underneath.

Id still paint the posts and horizontal structural pieces, but just thinking it would be a shame to cover up the beautiful wood panels again with paint.

Bottom line though is protection of the wood - is there any clear finish that would be as durable as paint?

- not really. paint provides a UV blocker through it's pigments. most clear finishes have UV blockers but its hard to make a truly clear finish last outdoors. Epoxy is pretty good but it can crack and the water can get underneath and creep along under the finish and UV may be an issue still. a semi transparent deck stain might be ok, You can look at spar varnish and tung oil and maybe refer to products used on boats. stay out of the bix box places for good products, look for professional grade coatings.

the albatron and other resins have a property of being in themselves non porous and impervious to water. this doesn't mean you can't get water in between the coating and the wood. one major disadvantage these products is that they simply cannot be removed. once they are on , they can't be dissolved, you can't scrape them off. they will tend to plug sandpaper unless you use very coarse sandpaper. because you can't remove it it might affect future wood maintenance. you can scuff them up and paint or even better use a coating like gelcoat that has more similar properties but I'd see a fiberglass shop and discuss with them as they know more about these coatings than a paint store would.. places that supply boat repair products will be a good resource. If you read some of the posts in boat forums you'll gain a lot of knowledge like this one :
http://forum.woodenboat.com/




I fiberglassed my decks , that's like an upside down boat, so they are completely impervious to water. can give some tips if you want to go that route. Its obviously not an original coating but it's very durable.

And is there anything sort of clear finish that would go on over the abatron liquid wood? (I was thinking of doing liquid wood over the entire surface but maybe thats not needed? Very little wood fill is needed on the panels and those could be tinted wood color) I know theres the various deck stains and such but I think it would have to be bare wood, dont think those will work over abatron.

I think you could sand the albatron and apply gelcoat , I'd check at a fiberglass shop or see what albatron reccomends. I think you can paint over it , maybe sand it first to give the paint a surface it can hook into.

RE: new wood trim - what kind of wood? Does cedar come in 1 inch boards -only seeing the odd 7/8 inchthickness. Can I clamp and glue 1" boards sandwiching them together,and expect it will hold in an exterior situation - using exterior grade ultimate titebond. Alternative is to rabbet some 2 x 6 which Id rather not do.

look for places that supply cabinet woods to the woodworking shops. Yes the lumber is normally sold rough cut and terminology might refer to 4/4 ( 1 inch ) or 5/4 (1.25 inches) If you took 5/4 rough cut and planed it smooth you'd end up with about 1 inch dressed. You might be able to buy it already planed or have someone wiht a planer process it for you. Really it should be jointed to make one side flat, then thickness planed to make the other side flat and parallel to the other side of the board. if you buy finished 1 inch lumber you will probably pay a lot more than the common 3/4.. but depends what species you want. You might be able to get 1 inch pressure treated decking? any of the small backyard type sawmills can cut lumber to your spec if you by enough so you might see if there is a small mill that can mill waht you want if you want quantity.

when wood absorbs and gives off water it expands and contracts. if the wood is completely sealed on all sides it might keep the water out but any exposed wood can let water into the pores. it's difficult to completely seal things.
if the wood expands and contracts, well the albatron won't absorb any water at all or exhibit these same stretching and shrinking properties. it may crack because you have two different materials that don't stretch and shrink together. If it's somewhat sheltered this would be much less of an issue than out in the sun and rain but it might last a long time, maybe others can chime in. Im not that familiar with the albatron but ive used epoxy and fiberglass resin ( polyester resin) quite a few times. the thickness of the coating might be a factor.

epoxy is a better glue. fiberglass ( polyester) resin is half the price. the epoxy is more bendable. boats are made from fiberglass but epoxy is used in repairs because it has better bonding abilities. I suspect albatron is an epoxy resin with added fillers so it bridges gaps better. you could look around on this site and it decribes some related products.

http://www.fibertekbc.calls.net/catalog.htm


RE: new wood trim - what kind of wood? Does cedar come in 1 inch boards -only seeing the odd 7/8 inchthickness. Can I clamp and glue 1" boards sandwiching them together,and expect it will hold in an exterior situation - using exterior grade ultimate titebond. Alternative is to rabbet some 2 x 6 which Id rather not do.
- certainly. but make the pieces fit and clamp them up properly. wood that is properly jointed and glued will do well. in fact you can increase the strength this way if you pay attention to the grain. boards will tend to cup as they dry. the cupping happens away from the heart side. if you view the end of the board and see the rings you can identify which side of the tree is up as the rings are curved. often boards are split and re-glued intentionally in cabinetmaking as a bunch of smaller pieces that are correctly glued up can be more dimensionally stable than one big wide board.

an easy way to remember it is "the board will try to straighten out its rings as it dries" if you lay stairs put them heart side up. the cupping will make the board form a crown in the middle. If you put them the other way they will cup upward. then rock and pull the nails and hold water like a dish. If you are layinmg porch boards you can keep this in mind. if you glue up a tabletop it is common to reverse each board alternately so the stresses are more equal on either side and this will increase the dimensional stability so the tabletop won't warp as much.

general rule , if you can, do what you do to both sides of the boards. you want the absorption of water to happen equally, if you coat one side with epoxy or albatron and not the other you have affected the evenness of the absorption rate from one side to the other. this isnt'; a good thing as it'll cause less dimensional stability , so it may warp because of different coatings.

[lovesickest]

Wood finished with some sort of clear coat will typically fade with direct exposure to the sun. If the area gets full sun, it may look great the first year, but many finishes will yellow, and the rich wood colour will fade. If you don't like how it ages, you can paint over it ?

[Kashka-Kat]

Abatron tech support advised that paint is just more durable than any clear finish - and best bet for long term. I want it to last another 100 yrs so..... decision made! Too bad though cos this grain is incredible. Abatron has an epoxy based primer for weathered wood that works well with the wood fill + liquid wood but she didn't think I should or would have to use it if wood was sanded to fresh color.

Wondering what yall would recommend for paint + primer over some areas of bare fresh wood, some areas of epoxy fill + wood hardener, and some up under the eaves that will till have some (70-80%) paint on it.

[Sinoed]

I have an original porch rail and cedar decking as well. The porch boards I painted over (although the paint didn't stick very well) but for the railing I repainted the spindles and sanded the upper and lower rails. After I sanded them I used a redwood colored stain which would be consistent with the time period of the house and finished them with Cabot's Spar varnish from Lowes. I chose a marine grade that is flexible but waterproof and it looks fantastic. My porch railing isn't usually in direct sunlight and does have overhead protection from the upper roof but the wood grain is gorgeous. I'd be hard pressed to cover over the wood too!

[Kashka-Kat]

What would you clean the bare wood with? It still seems kinda grungy in places even after sanding - caulk residue still in the cracks, that sort of thing.

I dont know about using tsp or anything soap-like that would soak in - seems that might create more problems than it would solve?

[Sinoed]

I had quite a few knots in my railing that took paint of different colors that were tough to deal with. Probably the worst one was a forest green (from the 50's maybe?). I ended up soaking a few sections with paint stripper and using wire brushes to clean some of them and then wiped the whole thing down with rags and paint thinner. I also chose a dark red stain (lucky for me it's close to original) which helped to hide the paint I just couldn't get off. I wasn't able to completely remove everything and unless you look close you can't tell anyways. I think it adds character to the house.

[phil]

Maybe you can pressure wash if it isn't going to go in the house or anything. that will fluff up the wood and help it accept paint. then it need s time to dry out again. anything that doesn't come out of the cracks can be removed with a pic. or scraper. You might fashion a tool for this. I found a little spatula that I use on things like that. its time intensive but paint won't stick to dirt. maybe a wire brush would work , if you try a welding supply place they will have little stainless steel brushes not much larger than a toothbrush.
I'd sand but don't go further than about 60 grit or so. more will make it smoother which you don't really want.

I'd definitely wash it with soap and water or TSP. get the dirt off, unless you can sand it to clean it. flush it to remove any left behind. then make sure it's really dry before you start.

I tried the helmsman spar varnish from Home depot on a threshold. It fell off in no time that stuff is junk.

If you have a marine place, try there. look for products used on wooden boats, that might get you a better product. I wouldn't trust anything you find in a big box store, or their advice.

if you want to make the wood new looking then you could try wood bleach but it sounds like you are going to paint. If you can get it to bare wood I'd maybe consider a sikkens stain so it won't peel. there are lots of porch products. one I used on my front steps was called Bohme it's a clear finish but has some pigmentation and seems to be working ok.

if you are painting I'd look for a good quality oil based primer then the outdoor paint of your choice. be careful you dont' choose a slippery paint. I tried using sikkens Rubol, it's kind of a rubbery paint but it is extremely slippery when frosty. It's good on vertical surfaces but no good for walking on. If you want you can put fine sand or better - walnut shells in the last coat to give it some grip. walnut shells wont' settle to the bottom of the can so easy as they aren't super heavy like sand.
if it's frosty there. on my fiberglass decks I did that but only where I walk when I enter. too much sand makes it hard to clean.

you can't paint anything dirty. I wouldnt' be worried about making the wood wet. when you sand into a piece of wood, then if you put water on it it raises the grain. this happens only once. raising the grain helps adhesion. as long as the wood doesn't stay wet for a long time it should dry quickly and be ok. even when doing fine furnature it's common to wet the wood , like with a damp cloth and let it dry and sand lightly with about 120. what this does is raises the grain and knocks it back thus preventing an issue later with the grain raising a second time when you don't want it to. . If you sand a lot then you;d have to do it again.

if you can sand it all then you don't need to wash it as the sandpaper already accomplished cleaning the surface but it won't take dirt out of the cracks.

the only issue with washing is it's the end of august. depending on the weather it may or may not have time to dry. If it's hot and dry then go for it but if the weather looks rainy maybe you are doing this a bit late in the year. who knows what september will bring. fans and tarps may help give you a better window.

remember to avoid direct sun use tarps to keep direct sun off unless it's relatively cool anyway. If the surface temp gets too hot in the week or so it'll take for the paint to cure it will bubble up because it releases gasses under the already dried skin of paint and you don't want that. if you can get the paint to dry for a day or so you might be able to then protect it from the sun with a tarp while it cures. maybe keep the tarp off the surface with some spacers, 2x4
s or whatever. or hang the tarp up to make a tent. If you can get a tarp over your work area to keep rain out then you have lots of time.

if you get it wet just put a fan blowing on it, it'll dry and if it isn't really clean then the paint will flake off for sure. if you have a leaf blower, or an air compressor with a blow nozzle, you could use that right after the water to try to blow any loose bits or little puddles away to speed drying. Guard your eyes. If you set a fan on it for a day or so when its warm and dry that would do a lot. If you are stuck because of bad weather I'd use blopentine and then you could wait for a good stretch of warm weather. If you wanted you could clean then blopentine than paint it. the turps thin the linseed oil and that penetrates which would help the paint grip but I'd dry it down after applying and wait a day or so for it to soak in and dry. If you;ve used epoxy fillers on it then don't put blopentine on that as it can't penetrate and might interefere with adhesion. epoxy can be scuffed up and painted but it isn't a porus material so blopentine wont help it.

most of these paints will say on the can that they only warranty it if it is new wood and if you paint all 6 sides of every board so don't put faith into any guarantee.


If the wood is a bit rough , and dry and clean that's half the battle. if you want a smoother appearance then let the paint level itself and you could let dry and sand lightly to level the paint out then continue.

Phil

[GibsonGM]

Just my 2 cents...I've not found a decent 'clear' in all my years of painting. Poly's hold up ok for interior stuff, but as stated, they yellow and spall off shortly. Must be re-applied every year, and even then they tend to turn 'icky' looking with multiple layers as they age and flake a bit. I have HEARD some OK things about true marine grade spar varnish (NOT the kind you can buy in the hardware that says "spar varnish" and comes from Minwax, LOL!). I would assume they also need regular re-app, tho, which adds another chore to your list every spring. And remember, UV darkens all of this, so eventually it is black.

I agree, Rubbol is a good product on vertical surfaces, for being a film, but not horizontal!! Hard to get the brushes clean, with it being a 'hybrid' and all...

I would prefer to 'color' my panels, if it were me, sad as that is...the way to go, IMHO as a painter, is to use some Ben Moore Arborcoat or Sherwin's Woodscapes acrylic (water based) STAIN. Not paint! And stain is self-priming, so 2 coats on bare wood will do you fine, no other primer etc needed. Phil's suggestion is the way we always did it up until maybe 5 yrs. ago (like the walnut idea!!), that was standard, but stains are 'IT' now.

It penetrates the grain rather than laying on top as a film (which WILL fail, eventually)...when it's time to repaint, it has simply worn away rather than peeled (mostly), making maintenance easier. They have flat finish when dry, again a traditional visual.


Finally....don't paint cedar, boys. The oils in it will make your paint come off in the not very distant future...stain is the way to go, whether you use a semi-trans or solid. I prefer solid just because it is traditional....have never had any issues with this, and now (in the US) it is standard for historical home grant providers to request the use of stain over paints...

[Vala]

Finally....don't paint cedar, boys. The oils in it will make your paint come off in the not very distant future...stain is the way to go, whether you use a semi-trans or solid. I prefer solid just because it is traditional....have never had any issues with this, and now (in the US) it is standard for historical home grant providers to request the use of stain over paints...

About Cedar, so if one were to put up cedar clapboards to replace some damaged ones, and the rest of the house is painted, what then? Or you just can't use cedar for this and have to go with something like Fir?