Sash Window Question for Jade

[Willa]

In my past as an environmental scientist, I'd be suspicious about how ACTUAL GAS FUMES are getting into the structure. Typically, a vapor isn't going to be transported across your yard and into the home by air...it just can't travel that far before being 'diluted'. If the vents are the issue, that NEEDS to be corrected, as it certianly is NOT legal to 'offgas' into someone home/onto their property. Do you know of codes re. distance they must be from a dwelling, property line, etc?

If an underground release of gasoline had occurred, a portion of that fluid can be transported with groundwater and migrate all KINDS of places you'd never think, such as under a basement floor; it's something I used to see routinely. I don't want to start your mind down a scary path for no reason - and there is NO data yet to make any assumptions - but could that be something to consider?

I don't recall how old you said those tanks may be (if brand new or above ground, HIGHLY unlikely to have leaked). Piping to the vents, could they have dumped *some* quantity?

If you think ANY 'gas fumes' are entering your house, your next move is to request real passive air sampling, as done using a Summa canister, for certified lab analysis. This will detect volatiles into the ppb level, and will either show you there IS no vapor migration to your home (the ideal case), that what you do smell is 'residual', from traffic/exhaust, OR that there is a major, major problem there. No matter, that's something that shouldn't wait. I am shocked the town/city hasn't done this...

ventpipescode.png (100.96 KiB) Viewed 425 times

This is what the actual TSSA code says. There are NO distances specified for a residence - none - only one for bulk fuel loading facilities and railyards.

If you have a look at my "Visit from the gas station inspector" posts you can see that the vent pipes are 4' from the property line, and about 24' to my actual house. This is the side of my house that has most of the doors and windows. The vent pipes are almost in line with my front door.

The gas storage tank was installed in spring, 2018. I am not smelling gas 24/7 or stronger gas smells in the basement - like if gas was seeping up through the ground (ie leaking storage tank). The old tank was removed, and a new tank was installed in a different location.

London, ON is windy most of the time. I believe that the gas fumes are infiltrating my house on the days that the wind is blowing them over. I mean, they don't have far to go ? My doors and windows fit properly and operate normally. There are no gaping holes in my structure. When there is a strong wind blowing from the NW I can also feel some drafts around my doors and windows - despite weather stripping, door sweeps, etc. When there is an infiltration I smell it first upstairs, and if I go closer to the windows in the north bedroom the smell is strongest. These windows also have storm windows. Despite this, on windy days I can feel some drafts from them.

I am not having a gas infiltration with every tanker filling - only some fills. I have been photographing them whenever I see them and the drivers are using proper vapour control hoses, etc.. The vent location is the problem.

What I am smelling is gasoline vapours - NOT exhaust.

The City and municipality has no jurisdiction over the vent location - it is solely the responsibility of the TSSA (Technical Standards and safety Association) - who APPROVED this location ! And they sent the guy who approved this location to inspect his own work ! He witnessed a fill where there were visible fumes coming from the vent, and my (lower elevation) front yard was filled with strong gas fumes.

The parent gas company claims they do not operate any stations in Canada - it belongs to a "branded wholesaler" who is responsible. Actual gas station owner bought the renovated station as a turnkey business from the flipper. Actual gas station owner is an absentee owner who allegedly owns a couple of dozen stations.

The City did not require site planning approval as the flipper renovated the building and there was no change of use (the used car lot also sold a small amount of gas). The assumption was the prior site planning that had been done (c. 1950 !) was still applicable. I believe that if a site plan review had been required, that most of these issues could have been avoided (ie noise, lighting, traffic safety, garbage, fence) and that the new vent location would have raised questions as the previous location was as far away as possible.

This hands off approach with regards to the TSSA is really messed up. The TSSA and Ministry of the Environment (who is responsible for air quality OUTSIDE my home but not within) have not taken any samples.

I have made many inquiries about air and soil sampling. This is what I have been told:

- the MOE will not pay for any air quality sampling, so I must pay out of pocket for this
- to have testing done, that is legally admissible in court, I would need the samples gathered by professionals. This plus the labwork and documentation costs over $ 2000.00 per site visit. This is also complicated by the gas fume infiltration NOT happening with each and every fill. It seems to depend on wind direction, but other factors like barometric pressure may play a role. Potentially I could pay $ 2000.00 each per unproductive visit from the experts. This is if the gas station would be cooperative enough to let me know when fills are scheduled.
- there are air samples I can gather myself and have tested that run about $ 200.00/each. However, these are inadmissible as evidence as there is no way to prove that I did not tamper with or attempt to skew the results. This applies to both active sampling (ie done at the time of an infiltration) and passive (device that gathers data over several days within the house).
- I was advised to NOT get sampling done without the input of a lawyer, as there are some limitations on the amount of time sampling data is valid.

I have found a place that will rent a FlirSystems camera, which is a thermal imaging type camera that makes gas fumes visible. One week's rental costs $ 4500.00. I have not made direct inquiries, but this imaging may have to be done by a qualified professional with an hourly rate. Again, scheduling this is complicated.

I have been writing a blog about this. I don't have it set up with an archive or search function yet, so you will have to scroll through. All the gas station stuff is from the present, with many photos and links going back through all the work I have done to better this house.

I am working on the blog sporadically, as it gives me so much stress. Very soon I will have compiled all my data, links, etc. and can create a TLDR (Too Long Didn't Read) with a basic synopsis of the situation, with links to the posts which address the topic. When this is done I will approach media, etc. So far my city councillor has NOT responded to my emails...

https://blackpicketfence.org

[GibsonGM]

I'm sorry, Willa. The law is clearly on your side, can "NOT ENTER A BUILDING" and so on. But proving that is another issue entirely. Many places we ever dealt with had an INTEREST in getting to the bottom of these things, because more time = more money, more harm....a $10k problem now can EASILY become several $100k's in liability. (I was most often on the side of the polluter, an outside entity brought in to prove/disprove cases just like yours, but to RESOLVE them to save money).

That a tank was removed doesn't mean there isn't still 500 cu. yds. of dirty dirt in the hole I've seen that many times. That's probably far out, tho. It would be a constant presence.

A tanker filling up could likely cause an odor some distance, I believe. Not just the passive venting, but if being filled, sure.

It is absolutely politics at work, I've seen in a billion times, and it's why I no longer work in the field. I moved to a VERY rural area, and I am now an "old-house painter". My ulcer is healing nicely, ha ha!

Had a case where a station was leaking underground for decades....a 'home for wayward children' down the road wouldn't grant access to test their well water for 4 yrs. after we discovered the problem. By the time their lawyers let me in, they had 20,000 ppb MTBE in their water (massive liver carcinogen). Lawyers and politicians....gov't wasn't any better at all - they also covered up a lot of things - lots of corruption, favors, 'taking sides'. The whole thing turned me quite Libertarian. I hope you can find a resolution to this!! Geez, even re-routing the vents a bit might help.

[Willa]

I'm sorry, Willa. The law is clearly on your side, can "NOT ENTER A BUILDING" and so on. But proving that is another issue entirely. Many places we ever dealt with had an INTEREST in getting to the bottom of these things, because more time = more money, more harm....a $10k problem now can EASILY become several $100k's in liability. (I was most often on the side of the polluter, an outside entity brought in to prove/disprove cases just like yours, but to RESOLVE them to save money).

That a tank was removed doesn't mean there isn't still 500 cu. yds. of dirty dirt in the hole I've seen that many times. That's probably far out, tho. It would be a constant presence.

A tanker filling up could likely cause an odor some distance, I believe. Not just the passive venting, but if being filled, sure.

It is absolutely politics at work, I've seen in a billion times, and it's why I no longer work in the field. I moved to a VERY rural area, and I am now an "old-house painter". My ulcer is healing nicely, ha ha!

Had a case where a station was leaking underground for decades....a 'home for wayward children' down the road wouldn't grant access to test their well water for 4 yrs. after we discovered the problem. By the time their lawyers let me in, they had 20,000 ppb MTBE in their water (massive liver carcinogen). Lawyers and politicians....gov't wasn't any better at all - they also covered up a lot of things - lots of corruption, favors, 'taking sides'. The whole thing turned me quite Libertarian. I hope you can find a resolution to this!! Geez, even re-routing the vents a bit might help.

I watched as the old underground storage tank was removed. It had been installed in the early 80's and was a fiberglass tank. I believe they do require some type of soil testing then potential remediation if contamination is found. The source of the smell is airborne. I have never smelt any gas type smells in my basement, ever.

Actually getting my hands on that information specific to that address is another issue. The TSSA is opaque to the point of obstruction, and charge $ 120.00 plus the research time required for any information. This is a not-for-profit agency that is supposed to be about safety ! I don't even know if they have this information or the Ministry of the Environment or a private environmental contractor. To complicate matters further, because there are such strong boundaries and jurisdictions, they often do not communicate with each other very well if at all. There have been many news reports about what a dysfunctional entity the TSSA is.

When I say a tanker is refuelling I mean that a tanker has come from the gas company to fill the underground storage tanks with gasoline and diesel - not a tanker type truck getting a gas re-fill at the pump.

The more I read about gas stations, and gas companies and research on the toxicity of gas, the more horrifying the information becomes. Benzene has been known to be a carcinogen for 100 years - why is it still in anything ?

Because the TSSA's own guidelines are so wishy-washy they are difficult to make them stick - which I suppose is the entire point.

I would be happy if the vent was moved as far away as possible from my house.

There is a study from Spain that said that the safe minimum distance for a gas station from a residence was 100 yards. I wish.

The vent location is not costing the gas station money or business therefore it is not a problem for them to solve. The owner has never met me, this is an investment property, etc., etc. The station is really not busy over night so it may be a tax right off for the owner, too ? I have no idea how it supports itself with 6 - 8 dead hours, with staff and operating expenses.

[GibsonGM]

Yes, I got your drift, Willa Yes, the delivery would pressurize the tank and cause some venting.

By leaving dirty dirt, I mean that the companies involved decide to sample soil 'from over here, rather than there' where you know there was some release. You can't hide HUGE quantities of impacted soil that way, but you CAN get clearance and still be leaving behind, oh...10's of gallons, perhaps 100s. People have SUCH faith in things like this, it's sad/funny. State & local gov often 'get the idea' and just want the project over, or are on the take. It's very hard to know the extent of such a thing, because it was intentionally not delineated or assessed. If not cracked, fiberglass tanks are pretty reliable, anyway. That's all I can say on that score.

"Because the TSSA's own guidelines are so wishy-washy they are difficult to make them stick - which I suppose is the entire point." Yup.

Environmental law/operations really aren't your friend - but there's a lot of money in it! It's now 20 yrs entrenched. On both gov and private sides. I have degrees in this, and have worked the field...and I am now quite anti-environmental in terms of law and the force it will apply; too much power was given to gov, it is corrupt, and so now 'environment' looks a lot like the Chicago city council, LOL. Almost ALWAYS it's the little person like you that gets the dirty end of the stick; the big dogs just get more powerful. Doesn't matter what party or the 'feelings' behind it (most law now is designed simply to make people feel good, not to be effective), that money talks. They want to get re-elected. Individuals are the ones who make a big difference, in how THEY handle their property, their materials....small biz, how do we dispose of paint thinner and so on. At least we got to this level of cleanup, which IS pretty good if one checks out how popular polluting was in the earl 70s, for ex. But we still have localized problems like yours.

They still need to use these substances because, of course, there is no viable alternative. Known carcinogens still have their uses But should be handled responsibly. I suppose when fission is realistic, we can use the hydrogen it produces to fuel trucking fleets, and that would be GREAT, except for the obvious uses for it if it were weaponized...now I've gone way off topic! Sorry for the depressing info.

Short of air sampling, I don't think there's a lot you can do, Willa. As with anything, it involves a lawsuit, and then the local authorities have ways to cover their butts, delay, etc. Maybe new media??

[GinaC]

Willa, I know this is frustrating and is completely stressing you out.

I have nothing to offer but I do wish you peace and a solution.

(Hey, maybe it's a money laundering place, and that way the cops can set up a sting, bust the front, and close the place down!)

[Willa]

(Hey, maybe it's a money laundering place, and that way the cops can set up a sting, bust the front, and close the place down!)

The place is busy enough * at times * , particularly when gas is cheap.

The flipper that renovated the property had previously been sued by the buyer of a different station that had been renovated/flipped and the flipper was charged with fraud, which was resolved out of court.

My suspicion is that since this station was renovated, with a convenience store where the mechanic had once been that the new owner was sold a pile of baloney about "projected profits". The owner lives several hours away so is not familiar with the taint/dynamics of this particular area. It may take awhile for this reality to sink in, though ? His staff are all very young and inexperienced, so they may be getting the brunt of the blame.

Another unsual feature of the convenience store is that the counter with the cash register is set up beside the window, so any creep loitering a few feet away can get a good look at the contents of the cash drawer before they decide to strike/not strike. It has been robbed more than a few times already. I have never seen another store with such a careless set up.