Nesting

[Willa]

But I think the ugliest, and most bafflingly ignored point of this thread is the bizarre, misinformed, and frankly misogynistic rant by the original poster. l

I'm with you, S.E.M..

Sashguy - if it is your BOLDLY STATED POLICY - ie in printed advertising, on your site, on client contracts that you won't work on homes where a pregnant woman lives, well that is the way you do business. It seems like a lot to ask to have any post-pubertal to perimenopausal XX individuals at an address prove they are not pregnant, in order to contract your services. It is also probably in violation of several laws pertaining to sex based discrimination.

It was the contempt in how you expressed this that got me.

Stringing together words like "ignorant" and "Neanderthal compulsion" and "nesting" pertaining to a pregnant woman's request that you restore her windows ? Frankly it sounded like your opinion of this woman was that she was intellectually impaired, subhuman, and driven to incomprehensible biological urges.

Contacting a professional to repair/restore some windows before a baby is born does not sound like something a thoughtless, compulsive animal does.

After your warm welcome/paternal lecture she probably contacted several window replacement companies who are happy to do business with her. She probably spoke about this interaction with her friends and neighbours and posted about it on social media, like modern types do. I hope it won't change her attitude towards her old home, that the original features are not worth saving or fixing.

She doesn't get her windows fixed, you don't make any money from the job, but somehow you are a hero for being concerned about the health of her fetus, by protecting her from herself, since she doesn't know any better ? Hmmm.

This makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Here's a news item about the first woman to run the Boston Marathon (1972), after she registered under a gender neutral name. Women were prevented from participating as it was believed that marathons would injure their "reproductive organs". In the spirit of protecting this frail and obviously foolish female(aka a rebellious woman with a mind of her own), she was PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED by a male race official who attempted to remove her from the marathon. This was 1972, everyone, not 1872 ! But those men knew what was best for her !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/meet-first-woman-run-boston-marathon-illegally-50-years-ago/

TELEMMGLPICT000125871861_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bq8ZHQ3C-aZjb9b-XbliPoWIL34vHBFfZ715eurmS5f7w.jpeg (325.26 KiB) Viewed 642 times

[Sashguy]

My apologies to those who were offended. Although my phraisology is lacking, I come here to learn, and that I have done. I do remain concerned with the health of those who trust me.

[Manalto]

Sashguy, I find it disappointing that some feel compelled to self-righteously recite the current fashionable mantras and gang up on you for your choice of words rather than consider your concerns and motivations or distinguish between vastly different situations. Was Louise Turpin just exercising her rights as a woman and mother?

[Gothichome]

Folks, with all do respect may I suggest a truce on this subject be implemented. Points have been made and counter points presented, but has gone well past the theme and reason for the District. It has nothing to do with loving, living in, and restoring old homes.

[GibsonGM]

Here comes captain regulation, LOL! Presented without (much) interpretation.

Regulatory: In the United States, any contractor in any way disturbing lead-based paint in a residence (assumed to be ANY and all paint pre 1978) MUST be certified by the EPA under RRP regulations. Non-residences are covered by OSHA (worse). No exceptions, whether that is window remove/install, painting, carpentry, electrician, plumber, interior designer...anyone receiving any money for work is a contractor, even if you are a neighbor. All landlords, anyone expecting to sell their home w/in I believe 90 days. The dust is left behind in the residence if work is not performed and cleaned correctly. You cannot 'say' paint is/is not lead based unless you are certified, nor can the owner 'tell you' it's not; you must do ALL work using RRP methods unless you have personally tested and certified it's not LBP, even for a quarter-sized hole tho <6 sq. ft. interior is 'exempt'..it is ONLY exempt from record keeping/notification requirements, not the practices.

Homeowners CAN do work in their own homes other than if it's for rent or sale...but knowing you made your child developmentally delayed for life might give pause.

You do not need to cause harm to anyone to get 'busted'. If the homeowner (or anyone else!) finds out you're not certified, all they need do is call the EPA to receive part of an (up to) $32,000 per offense, per day, fine. They can do so any time after the work was done, too. Potentially years later. By not being certified, someone else effectively has control of your business.

Considering who is present on your job site may be a very, very wise business move. The other people the woman calls are probably not going to be certified, and will fill her house up with lead dust. If there is an exposure, even if the dust was already there and her fetus is exposed, even not by you...guess who's going to get a call from EPA, followed by a court date? For those who don't think it's important, you could ask a pediatrician...whether it's a real, big risk or not - the regulatory consequences could be HUGE, so that doesn't matter much, does it? I don't see this as sexist in the slightest way...if a child <6 were present, I'd probably be squeamish too. Exterior work doesn't 'scare' me as much...if someone got dust all over the ground last week that I don't know about, it'll be gone next weed via rain etc.

[Greenwood]

Folks, with all do respect may I suggest a truce on this subject be implemented. Points have been made and counter points presented, but has gone well past the theme and reason for the District. It has nothing to do with loving, living in, and restoring old homes.

The original post was divisive and upsetting to some. I agree with Gothichome that it didn't have much to do with the theme and reason of this forum, so let's allow that topic to die (and any others that follow that are as equally divisive).

[GibsonGM]

Folks, with all do respect may I suggest a truce on this subject be implemented. Points have been made and counter points presented, but has gone well past the theme and reason for the District. It has nothing to do with loving, living in, and restoring old homes.

The original post was divisive and upsetting to some. I agree with Gothichome that it didn't have much to do with the theme and reason of this forum, so let's allow that topic to die (and any others that follow that are as equally divisive).

Hey, sorry...I thought the extremely huge implications of lead poisoning were relevant. That's why I got into the 'discussion', not over gender or any other issues. Just reality of what lead dust can do, and often does, to children.

If you don't think that's relevant...well, I'm sorry, but it is, from both health and liability viewpoints. I'm surprised more people aren't showing up here with real health problems. It's not discussed enough, IMO, so people can work safely, or make good decisions.

So, because 'you agree with Gothichome', that should be the end, huh? Shut it down. Mmmm....what if I'm offended by people not being aware that doing things willy-nilly can destroy someone's life, feelz irrelevant?

But I'll drop it, don't want to be offensive or anything. Here, enjoy. https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/data/

[Willa]

Serious questions:

- Since a professional working on old windows will be exposed to the most lead particles, are they required to have a blood test, to be kept on record, before they deal with the first window, to establish the baseline for their lead exposure ?

- Are window restoration professionals required to get quarterly or yearly blood tests, to monitor their exposure to lead, and the effectiveness of their application of OSHA, EPA, etc. safe work practices ?

- Are workers who are exposed to potential lead contaminants required by law to not impregnate, or become pregnant ? Poor quality sperm as a result of lead exposure is strongly linked to birth defects and other health issues in the fetus, even when the mother has no risk factors for exposure to lead during pregnancy.

- What is the documented risk to a homeowner, who is having window restoration work done, if safe practices are followed ? What if the homeowner and children are absent from the premises during an average 8 hour school or work day ? What is the risk if rooms are sealed off during restoration, while the home remains occupied ?

Exposure to lead has negative consequences for BOTH sexes, which affect fertility, conception, pregnancy and the baby once it is born. It has negative implications for humans at every stage of life.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10031

https://www.apha.org/policies-and-advocacy/public-health-policy-statements/policy-database/2014/07/07/14/25/occupational-lead-poisoning

https://www.aafp.org/afp/1998/0215/p719.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/01/01/women-say-they-had-to-be-sterilized-to-hold-jobs/74f7104e-8449-48d2-9592-c52d496dfffc/?utm_term=.e4148ed3e68a

https://books.google.ca/books?id=mr4cGRBF0gQC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=exposure+to+lead+worker+sterilization&source=bl&ots=XzYsmB1VIu&sig=SPA46BNK5Z_vUPrueInEGPi_B7Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR1_2QqvvYAhUQM6wKHeXkAWoQ6AEIQDAE#v=onepage&q=exposure%20to%20lead%20worker%20sterilization&f=false

[GibsonGM]

Serious questions:

- Since a professional working on old windows will be exposed to the most lead particles, are they required to have a blood test, to be kept on record, before they deal with the first window, to establish the baseline for their lead exposure ?
>>Under OSHA, an EMPLOYEE must have blood level monitoring, yes. Most of us are sole proprietors...I am exempt from the regulations of OSHA.

- Are window restoration professionals required to get quarterly or yearly blood tests, to monitor their exposure to lead, and the effectiveness of their application of OSHA, EPA, etc. safe work practices ?
>>Only as above.

- Are workers who are exposed to potential lead contaminants required by law to not impregnate, or become pregnant ? Poor quality sperm as a result of lead exposure is strongly linked to birth defects and other health issues in the fetus, even when the mother has no risk factors for exposure to lead during pregnancy.
>>Not that I know of, perhaps in China...an elevated lead concentration in blood of a worker results in immediate withdrawal from duties that may expose them to lead, an their levels return to a safe concentration before returning to work. "citizens" like customers generally are not monitored this way.

- What is the documented risk to a homeowner, who is having window restoration work done, if safe practices are followed ? What if the homeowner and children are absent from the premises during an average 8 hour school or work day ? What is the risk if rooms are sealed off during restoration, while the home remains occupied ?
>>If safe practices are followed, and can be thoroughly documented, the homeowner SHOULD be exposed to zero level of lead paint dust and debris. In a perfect world. Now tell them that AFTER they suffer an exposure because a prior owner or even they themselves generated dust before or after you were in the home...it will not matter what YOU did. Only that someone has a high lead level, or has even sustained real injury.

Exposure to lead has negative consequences for BOTH sexes, which affect fertility, conception, pregnancy and the baby once it is born. It has negative implications for humans at every stage of life.

>>Yes, you are correct, 100%. From high blood pressure to neurotoxic affects, to developmental delays, rage syndrome, on and on. The ones most vulnerable are children as they are still developing neurologically. In vitro is now being studied more comprehensively; as with all the rest...dose is what does the damage. Something that is the size of a pea will receive a greater dose of lead than a child 2 yrs old, than an adult, with a set quantity of exposure. Don't you agree?

Therefore...pregnant women are more vulnerable to lead absorption problems leading to birth (or other developmental) defects. As much as you'd like to make the sexes entirely "equal" (meaning "the same") in all respects...I'm sorry, they are not. There are equipment differences

>>I think the real root of the whole 'argument' here is thus: a man may find, 2 yrs after a renovation, that his sperm count is down. It will be a "wow, huh? Gee" thing. Whowouldathunkit? And his Dr. will move on...it will probably reverse itself anyway as he pees out the lead.

2 mos. after renovation, when the baby is born with horrible mental malfunctions...do you think it will be 'wow, gee, aww shucks too bad'? Or will they want to know WHY this happened. The pediatrician will HELP, will SUGGEST what happened. And if YOU were anywhere near a reno, doing work, clean methods or not...YOU will probably be sued. And maybe successfully, too. Everyone loves a way to make such a sad story end happily! LIABILITY. EVEN if the parents were the ones who did the exposing, by other work...or a previous owner<<

Hey, I just got in here to point out the health aspects, not to argue men vs. women...that's not my function or interest. You guys can have it. You won't force me to 'come around' to another way of thinking....I will try to protect a fetus or child, over an adult, any day...and then to protect the adult by informing them that what they're doing may be hazardous. In that order. I have a science degree, I've worked health/safety...this is how it is. I don't CARE about 'oh equivalent...oh the worker should...'. ONLY about what will deform or harm someone, and what the vectors are. Transfer across the placenta is just another vector to me. It only takes ONE dose to maul the fetus, ma'am, not like an adult, no way...

With that, I will yield the floor and you may continue at your leisure...I do not want to go too far beyond moderator-requested end point!

[Mick_VT]

Folks, with all do respect may I suggest a truce on this subject be implemented. Points have been made and counter points presented, but has gone well past the theme and reason for the District. It has nothing to do with loving, living in, and restoring old homes.

Agreed, I think all have had a say here, and other side discussions that have sprung up can be taken elsewhere. I am locking down this thread. PM me if you want to discuss this action.

Remember the one thing we have in common is our love of old houses, there is probably very much that we disagree on outside of that. This board provides the ability for you to block out those who offend if you really need - but I would hope it never comes to that for any of us

Stay safe, have fun, life is too short for anything else