OK so with all the projects I have and the only carpenter in the area who does quality work always being super busy, I'm not really getting anything done, especially my windows. I've decided it's probably for the best to invest in a table saw. But I don't come from a wood working [family] background and don't really know what to look for etc ... so I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for a good quality table saw to buy with my projects in mind.
Thanks in advance,
Buying a table saw
Re: Buying a table saw
bosch makes a nice portable 10" table saw...Makita is another that makes a smaller but decent portable table...
if you want a decent but not super expensive stationary table, a Jet might do you well...
if you go cheap, you'll most likely regret it...if you only use your 'good' table saw on occasion, it should last you a life time...
may I suggest you got to fine homebuilding online and search for their reviews on table saws? I think you'll find it interesting and informative...
...jade
if you want a decent but not super expensive stationary table, a Jet might do you well...
if you go cheap, you'll most likely regret it...if you only use your 'good' table saw on occasion, it should last you a life time...
may I suggest you got to fine homebuilding online and search for their reviews on table saws? I think you'll find it interesting and informative...
...jade
Re: Buying a table saw
Thank you for putting me on the right track, Jade. Much appreciated!
Oh and what are the pros and cons of portable vs stationary table saws? I didn't even know there were portable ones.
Oh and what are the pros and cons of portable vs stationary table saws? I didn't even know there were portable ones.
Re: Buying a table saw
I strongly recommend against any kind of entry level/portable saw. They are loud, underpowered and imprecise. My first saw was a basic craftsman model I got off craigslist. It was better than none, but I never enjoyed using it - setup was painful and the loudness of a universal motor made using it very scary. Soon after, I got a Delta belt-drive contractor saw with UniFence. What a difference! I felt much safer using that saw and I could use the fence to just dial in a precise measurement. Also much quieter. At that point I didn't have a lot of space, so a cabinet saw wasn't an option. But now I would just buy a full cabinet saw (like Delta Unisaw which can be had used for $500-$1000 and it will last forever) I would also seriously consider a sawstop saw(if you can spare extra cash). It's kind of pricey, but table saws are inherently dangerous and anything to mitigate the danger of losing fingers is worth it IMO
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phil
- Has many leather bound books
- Posts: 4616
- Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:11 pm
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Re: Buying a table saw
Vala it depends what you want it for. If you are going to use it for building fences and cutting the odd part then the portable saws are nice because you can tote them around and put them away. You can take them outside for wood cutting and heep your shop clean..
a cabinet saw, or stationary saw is not portable. as noted above they are much nicer to run. you will have less issues with parts that are cut inaccurately. you will be able to do more with less frustration.
realize that any cheap portable is going to be a made in china piece of junk, dont; think that names like Bosch equate to quality German machinery or that a dewalt means good American quality. those days are gone and they are all Chinese junk.
General saws made in canada are good, general international made in taiwan is garbage. Unisaws are good and as said they last a lifetime. You can look at grizzly, they make cabinet saws but they are chinese too I think. the sawstop ones are pretty nice if you are in the new market.
the fence systems are important. delta made the unifence, it was ok but the beisemeyer fences are the best, they are simple and lock dead square. You wont; find fences with the Beisemeyer label but most of the newer cabinet saws will be beisemeyer clones. it might be called a T fence , if you look at a sawstop they are the same thing essentially.
If you want a good saw for less money buy used. a little rust on the top is easy to fix, as long as they haven't been sitting out in the rain or something. a lot of the commercial shop ones are 3 phase. You can buy modern phase converters to run 3 phase saws on single phase so I wouldn't rule them out but best if you can find one that will run on 110 or 220 single phase. If it runs and the blade tilts ok it is probably allright and there are a lot of good used ones on the market. I paid 200 for my unisaw and more than that for the fence.
you can find medium grade saws like sears craftsman or some of the older ones might say rockwell international or beaver in Canada. these are ok but not super powerful.
dont; go buy a 5 HP saw it will be too much for your needs. if it's got a larger than 10 inch blade you are going into a commercial saw that requires a different level of respect.
look at how the blade is driven, the cheapo portables might have one belt, or it may be direct drive from a wimpy little motor.
mid grade saws might have a motor where the weight of the motor tensions the belt. they are ok but not great, the better saws usually have two or three short belts coupling the arbor ( the shaft where you mount he blade) to the motor.
the table on cabinet saw will weigh over 200 lbs, under that you will see massive cast steel trunnions, these are the pivots that the arbor and motor pivot on. this and the heavy top give stability to the machine,, go cheap and you get a light top with a lot of vibration or wimpy trunnions that won't hold the blade square if you are ripping stock.
watch some U tube videos, to find out what causes kickbacks, most comon mistakes are cutting oblong wood with the short side against the fence or if something gets on top of the back side of the blade it will launch at terrifying speed.. once you understand the causes of kickbacks you can protect yourself.
don't put your hands near the blade and it won't cut you. dont; get daring with the distance, use push sticks. never reach over a spinning blade, if you have little scraps all over stop the saw clear the table you don;t want them to find the back of the blade..
you can add a splitter or a riving knife, You can google "splitter and riving knife" to know what they are. I would suggest you have one installed for safety, they help the wood not bind on the blade and they help protect the back of the blade from launching stuff at you.
aside from the saw there are mobile bases , some are ok some are junk. dont; get a cheap junky one. you only need one if you need to move it aside. its more sturdy without. I've made some nice mobile bases that really work well and could give you ideas on how to construct one that works well without the saw having to sit on wheels.
and then there are overarm guards, some have suction and that helps them not spray wood dust in your face. The sawstop ones have a pretty nice overarm guard system that isn't a big pipe over top of the machine, they are pretty well liked, You can add the guard later if you choose. any new saw is going to have some sort of guard but here are aftermarket overarm guards that you can add later if wanted.
myself I'd rather buy a good used saw that came out of a woodwork shop school or institution.. but if you want to spend on a new one the sawstop ones are nice, especially the higher end commercial grade ones.
I'd look for a used single phase unisaw. You won't go wrong with that.
the length of the rails on the table will be another option. It needs to fit your space. If you have long rails you can move the fence further away from the blade and cut longer parts.. I don't think you need more than what is standard but dont turn one down because the rails are too long.
try too google "crosscut sled". this is a device you can make yourself and it helps you do things like cutting long boards to length or to cut panels more safe and accurate. .
some are right tilt, some are left tilt. you can note which they are. either will work just note the difference.
3 HP is a good size for a cabinet saw. if it's a little portable it might be 3/4 HP or something. 10 inch is the most common size by far.
here is a picture of a saw with robust trunnions this is in fact a grizzly , probably made in china but you will notice the amount of cast iron under the table.
https://forums.woodnet.net/ssl_proxy.ph ... nnion2.jpg
compare that with the cheap contractors saws
like this
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/attachme ... edium-.jpg
this one is junk
https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/mgikui5.jpg
this is a unisaw note also the beismeyer fence..
http://estrategy.net/bill/website/tools ... storation/
this is where your money is.. if it is made in china like the grizzly it wont; be good quality cast iron but still may be heavy large castings. the contractor saws won't have solid trunnions. it's these heavy castings that make the saw run smooth and cut square, they won't let the blade deflect and the mass absorbs vibrations.
with an older unisaw and you will get good solid trunnions and it wont; be cheap chinese cast iron.
the older stuff made in the US, england sweden , germany have better quality castings, the metal isn't porous.. the modern day Chinese knock offs look the same , heavy steel castings look no different if they are good quality cast steel or cast ground up hyundais.
if you are looking for new, try to locate where the foundary is.. that will tell you a lot. try to google the location of the foundary,, then you will realize that a lot of the stuff sold in the US isn't US made. this is why I'd buy used.
you can cut wood with the little contractor saws, they are what they are. I'd consider them a different tool completely. You can cut 2x4"s off to length and things like that but if you wanted to say build your own window for example, get a better saw... but you won't be carting a cabinet saw around in your car. Its a different tool for a different purpose.. I really dont think you will regret owning a good saw. I like ot buy stuff lke that used If I want my money back I can resell it. I have a bosch one here in my shop , burned up motor ,, new it is probably $700 or so ,, it's not worth fixing.. but it has a nice little cart with wheels..
so you will hear of both types of saws referred to as "tablesaws" I dont feel any safer behind a contractor saw. if you want to for example rip a 2x4 lengthwise.. The contractor saw will be struggling and it just doesn't have the oomph.. the contractor saw will have maybe 2 to 3 horsepower and you'll push it through like nothing. you could do the job on a contractors saw,, so you go slow , then the blade is getting so hot it's smoking ,,, or you cna take several little cuts,, you can do it,, but the power quickly becomes important as you get going. You wont; stop the cabinet saw.. you can cut through a 3" plank of oak no problem. that will kill a little contractor if you don't do it very gingerly. but with the cabinet saw you can cart it outside and do little stuff and you do the best you can with what you have. If you look you will find people making furniture and all sorts of things with little saws like that. I wont; say you can't.. just that you can skip a lot of frustration if you dont; mind it occupying space in your workshop... it's pretty much a permanent fixture.. they both have their place.. to move a cabinet saw you pretty much need to take the top off and have a friend help lift it with you. You can slide them around your garage and push it aside pretty easy, or roll it on a mobile base, but you can't pick one up by yourself. If you try making windows and things like that that are a little more advanced the squareness of the cuts becomes really important so you'll have less frustration with a proper saw.. but you can do amazing stuff with the little ones.. it's possible...
I think if you get a good one you will really enjoy it and never regret the expense. You might not have the experience to appreciate it yet but if you get going you may realize that woodworking is a really fun hobby and you'll do some things that will make you proud and you'll really enjoy it. Don't be afraid of one , just try to get someone to give you a little instruction or watch some U tube videos and learn that way.. once you get going you will naturally take on more and more challenging projects and become more comfortable using it. At first you are wary and that's understandable.
Phil
a cabinet saw, or stationary saw is not portable. as noted above they are much nicer to run. you will have less issues with parts that are cut inaccurately. you will be able to do more with less frustration.
realize that any cheap portable is going to be a made in china piece of junk, dont; think that names like Bosch equate to quality German machinery or that a dewalt means good American quality. those days are gone and they are all Chinese junk.
General saws made in canada are good, general international made in taiwan is garbage. Unisaws are good and as said they last a lifetime. You can look at grizzly, they make cabinet saws but they are chinese too I think. the sawstop ones are pretty nice if you are in the new market.
the fence systems are important. delta made the unifence, it was ok but the beisemeyer fences are the best, they are simple and lock dead square. You wont; find fences with the Beisemeyer label but most of the newer cabinet saws will be beisemeyer clones. it might be called a T fence , if you look at a sawstop they are the same thing essentially.
If you want a good saw for less money buy used. a little rust on the top is easy to fix, as long as they haven't been sitting out in the rain or something. a lot of the commercial shop ones are 3 phase. You can buy modern phase converters to run 3 phase saws on single phase so I wouldn't rule them out but best if you can find one that will run on 110 or 220 single phase. If it runs and the blade tilts ok it is probably allright and there are a lot of good used ones on the market. I paid 200 for my unisaw and more than that for the fence.
you can find medium grade saws like sears craftsman or some of the older ones might say rockwell international or beaver in Canada. these are ok but not super powerful.
dont; go buy a 5 HP saw it will be too much for your needs. if it's got a larger than 10 inch blade you are going into a commercial saw that requires a different level of respect.
look at how the blade is driven, the cheapo portables might have one belt, or it may be direct drive from a wimpy little motor.
mid grade saws might have a motor where the weight of the motor tensions the belt. they are ok but not great, the better saws usually have two or three short belts coupling the arbor ( the shaft where you mount he blade) to the motor.
the table on cabinet saw will weigh over 200 lbs, under that you will see massive cast steel trunnions, these are the pivots that the arbor and motor pivot on. this and the heavy top give stability to the machine,, go cheap and you get a light top with a lot of vibration or wimpy trunnions that won't hold the blade square if you are ripping stock.
watch some U tube videos, to find out what causes kickbacks, most comon mistakes are cutting oblong wood with the short side against the fence or if something gets on top of the back side of the blade it will launch at terrifying speed.. once you understand the causes of kickbacks you can protect yourself.
don't put your hands near the blade and it won't cut you. dont; get daring with the distance, use push sticks. never reach over a spinning blade, if you have little scraps all over stop the saw clear the table you don;t want them to find the back of the blade..
you can add a splitter or a riving knife, You can google "splitter and riving knife" to know what they are. I would suggest you have one installed for safety, they help the wood not bind on the blade and they help protect the back of the blade from launching stuff at you.
aside from the saw there are mobile bases , some are ok some are junk. dont; get a cheap junky one. you only need one if you need to move it aside. its more sturdy without. I've made some nice mobile bases that really work well and could give you ideas on how to construct one that works well without the saw having to sit on wheels.
and then there are overarm guards, some have suction and that helps them not spray wood dust in your face. The sawstop ones have a pretty nice overarm guard system that isn't a big pipe over top of the machine, they are pretty well liked, You can add the guard later if you choose. any new saw is going to have some sort of guard but here are aftermarket overarm guards that you can add later if wanted.
myself I'd rather buy a good used saw that came out of a woodwork shop school or institution.. but if you want to spend on a new one the sawstop ones are nice, especially the higher end commercial grade ones.
I'd look for a used single phase unisaw. You won't go wrong with that.
the length of the rails on the table will be another option. It needs to fit your space. If you have long rails you can move the fence further away from the blade and cut longer parts.. I don't think you need more than what is standard but dont turn one down because the rails are too long.
try too google "crosscut sled". this is a device you can make yourself and it helps you do things like cutting long boards to length or to cut panels more safe and accurate. .
some are right tilt, some are left tilt. you can note which they are. either will work just note the difference.
3 HP is a good size for a cabinet saw. if it's a little portable it might be 3/4 HP or something. 10 inch is the most common size by far.
here is a picture of a saw with robust trunnions this is in fact a grizzly , probably made in china but you will notice the amount of cast iron under the table.
https://forums.woodnet.net/ssl_proxy.ph ... nnion2.jpg
compare that with the cheap contractors saws
like this
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/attachme ... edium-.jpg
this one is junk
https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/mgikui5.jpg
this is a unisaw note also the beismeyer fence..
http://estrategy.net/bill/website/tools ... storation/
this is where your money is.. if it is made in china like the grizzly it wont; be good quality cast iron but still may be heavy large castings. the contractor saws won't have solid trunnions. it's these heavy castings that make the saw run smooth and cut square, they won't let the blade deflect and the mass absorbs vibrations.
with an older unisaw and you will get good solid trunnions and it wont; be cheap chinese cast iron.
the older stuff made in the US, england sweden , germany have better quality castings, the metal isn't porous.. the modern day Chinese knock offs look the same , heavy steel castings look no different if they are good quality cast steel or cast ground up hyundais.
if you are looking for new, try to locate where the foundary is.. that will tell you a lot. try to google the location of the foundary,, then you will realize that a lot of the stuff sold in the US isn't US made. this is why I'd buy used.
you can cut wood with the little contractor saws, they are what they are. I'd consider them a different tool completely. You can cut 2x4"s off to length and things like that but if you wanted to say build your own window for example, get a better saw... but you won't be carting a cabinet saw around in your car. Its a different tool for a different purpose.. I really dont think you will regret owning a good saw. I like ot buy stuff lke that used If I want my money back I can resell it. I have a bosch one here in my shop , burned up motor ,, new it is probably $700 or so ,, it's not worth fixing.. but it has a nice little cart with wheels..
so you will hear of both types of saws referred to as "tablesaws" I dont feel any safer behind a contractor saw. if you want to for example rip a 2x4 lengthwise.. The contractor saw will be struggling and it just doesn't have the oomph.. the contractor saw will have maybe 2 to 3 horsepower and you'll push it through like nothing. you could do the job on a contractors saw,, so you go slow , then the blade is getting so hot it's smoking ,,, or you cna take several little cuts,, you can do it,, but the power quickly becomes important as you get going. You wont; stop the cabinet saw.. you can cut through a 3" plank of oak no problem. that will kill a little contractor if you don't do it very gingerly. but with the cabinet saw you can cart it outside and do little stuff and you do the best you can with what you have. If you look you will find people making furniture and all sorts of things with little saws like that. I wont; say you can't.. just that you can skip a lot of frustration if you dont; mind it occupying space in your workshop... it's pretty much a permanent fixture.. they both have their place.. to move a cabinet saw you pretty much need to take the top off and have a friend help lift it with you. You can slide them around your garage and push it aside pretty easy, or roll it on a mobile base, but you can't pick one up by yourself. If you try making windows and things like that that are a little more advanced the squareness of the cuts becomes really important so you'll have less frustration with a proper saw.. but you can do amazing stuff with the little ones.. it's possible...
I think if you get a good one you will really enjoy it and never regret the expense. You might not have the experience to appreciate it yet but if you get going you may realize that woodworking is a really fun hobby and you'll do some things that will make you proud and you'll really enjoy it. Don't be afraid of one , just try to get someone to give you a little instruction or watch some U tube videos and learn that way.. once you get going you will naturally take on more and more challenging projects and become more comfortable using it. At first you are wary and that's understandable.
Phil
Re: Buying a table saw
My 2 cents, which kind of builds on vvyz is look for a used sawstop contractor on craigslist - you will likely pay about $1.5k, but it is a great saw, and the safest on the market, which is especially important of you are new to the tool. The way I justified it is that the healthcare deductibles alone would cost more than the saw if I had an accident. The peace of mind is great, and the saw is a joy to use...
P.S. their jobsite saw is also supposed to be excellent, but you might be harder pressed to find a used one
P.S. their jobsite saw is also supposed to be excellent, but you might be harder pressed to find a used one
Mick...
-
phil
- Has many leather bound books
- Posts: 4616
- Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:11 pm
- Location: Near Vancouver BC
Re: Buying a table saw
I can;t vouch for thesawstop contractors saws but the larger ones are pretty nice.
or there is this unisaw for 600 with mobile base, You just need a fence for it.
https://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/d/de ... 04906.html
or there is another for 1500
https://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/d/de ... 90420.html
this one has the unifence. it's nice too.
I'd buy the 600.00 one,Maybe look and offer him 500.00 then add a new fence.. the part of the table that is missing you can make , If you buy a new fence it comes with it. and the rails come with the fence as well. these fences only use the front rail, that back rail is just a piece of angle iron that adds strength and supports the table but it's included with a new fence.
I dont; know how many used sawstop ones you will find on the market as they are relatively new on the scene.
Here we have websites where they sell off government assets , so stuff from schools and institutions go through there, this is a great source for deals. you might have something similar. You may find that some of the schools and institutions are going to sawstops and selling off the unisaws.
or there is this unisaw for 600 with mobile base, You just need a fence for it.
https://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/d/de ... 04906.html
or there is another for 1500
https://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/d/de ... 90420.html
this one has the unifence. it's nice too.
I'd buy the 600.00 one,Maybe look and offer him 500.00 then add a new fence.. the part of the table that is missing you can make , If you buy a new fence it comes with it. and the rails come with the fence as well. these fences only use the front rail, that back rail is just a piece of angle iron that adds strength and supports the table but it's included with a new fence.
I dont; know how many used sawstop ones you will find on the market as they are relatively new on the scene.
Here we have websites where they sell off government assets , so stuff from schools and institutions go through there, this is a great source for deals. you might have something similar. You may find that some of the schools and institutions are going to sawstops and selling off the unisaws.
Re: Buying a table saw
phil wrote:I dont; know how many used sawstop ones you will find on the market as they are relatively new on the scene.
I see one every month or two, they have been around long enough that they do turn up. Usually they are from non-tradespeople who find they don't use it enough to justify the space it takes up.
Mick...
Re: Buying a table saw
Wow, so would the $600 one be good for the window work I need to get done? Sorry I don't really know hardly anything about table saws.
Re: Buying a table saw
Vala wrote:Wow, so would the $600 one be good for the window work I need to get done? Sorry I don't really know hardly anything about table saws.
Those cabinet saws Phil is recommending will do about anything - they are professional units. Be prepared for their weight though (several hundred pounds is not uncommon). They may also require 240v, and very possibly service work as they have had a professional life
Mick...