I don't think they are even capable of building proper houses anymore

[OurPhillyRow]

I am admittedly biased towards old houses, so while this is a pretty house, it doesn't compare to an old house on so many levels. The scale of things is wonky, there is little that is quirky about it (cause we all know old houses were delightfully quirky). The exterior is trying to look old, but it doesn't fool me for a moment. The interior is predictable and not as interesting as it would be if it were old.

[phil]

as sort of a comparison you can check out some of these like the country classics and post and beam.
They aren't quite like old homes but some do reflect classic styles. parts like panel doors, closed wooden staircases in fir , post and beams with mortice and tennons and all sorts of fancy joinery. it is all possible.

One thing about the craftsmanship, we may not have the experienced woodworkers of yesterday but what we do have now is CNC. That's huge. At one time each part had to be cut and fitted by hand and now we can have an autocad file running a 5 axis router that can churn out intricate parts within very close tolerances and it will do that all day long and run circles around guys with chisels and saws.
this lowers the cost of intricate carvings, cornices and the like and makes a lot of things viable that would otherwise be out of reach.

http://www.viceroy.com/en/models/post_beam/528803.html

[Al F. Furnituremaker]

we may not have the experienced woodworkers of yesterday but what we do have now is CNC.

No matter how good CNC has become, I can spot CNC produced stuff a mile away. It is too perfect, almost plastic looking. The perfection of exact copies takes away from the warmth of hand made items. CNC made stuff is nothing more than machine made reproductions lacking character. It has its place, but not in replicating true craftsmanship. It's all about money.

I had the privilege a few years ago of working on a new Georgian construction project. I built all the woodwork for the den. Cherry raised paneling, floor to ceiling, with large detailed multi-part crown. The panels were one piece (12-14" wide), made from one board per column (3 panels per column). Every pair of columns were book-matched. In addition I built 4 corner cabinets, two with plaster shell tops. Granted I used molding machines to run the molding and shapers to raise the panels.

I was the 3rd cabinetmaker on the job. None of the previous ones could meet the quality requirements that were demanded by the owner. To this day, I do work for the owners. There was one other craftsman on the job, that was a stair-maker, now retired. Three flights of quality, detailed stairways.

The entire project took 4 years and $6M. I joined the project towards the end. What an opportunity.

[JRC]

JRC, as a pro, your thoughts on building this in today's world. With mods it could be brought up to code. Could it be done for the same 4 million, or even 5?
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 61b2d2.jpg
I see nothing here that could not be souced today.

Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with cost estimating. But, depending on your location, I don't see why that house couldn't be recreated for less than $4M.

Location is important, though. For example, the house in the original post would probably only sell for $750k-1M in one of our toniest suburbs.

[JRC]

JRC, as a pro, your thoughts on building this in today's world. With mods it could be brought up to code. Could it be done for the same 4 million, or even 5?
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 61b2d2.jpg
I see nothing here that could not be souced today.

Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with cost estimating. But, depending on your location, I don't see why that house couldn't be recreated for less than $4M.

Location is important, though. For example, the house in the original post would probably only sell for $750k-1M in one of our toniest suburbs.

I have to backtrack a little. I looked more closely at the listing, and I think that house, considering its size, would probably go for more like $1.5-2million. But still significantly less than $4million.

[phil]

we may not have the experienced woodworkers of yesterday but what we do have now is CNC.

No matter how good CNC has become, I can spot CNC produced stuff a mile away. It is too perfect, almost plastic looking. The perfection of exact copies takes away from the warmth of hand made items. CNC made stuff is nothing more than machine made reproductions lacking character. It has its place, but not in replicating true craftsmanship. It's all about money.

CNC is another tool. we have it today. They didn't back in the day. why not use it?

as an example , say someone asked you to make a table with legs like this and provided a sample. I dont' think you or I could come close to that within reasonable time/cost with hand tools. I'm not saying it's impossible or you dont' have the skills but the time involved would make it impractical so you'd probably refuse the job or try to hire a carver to do the work. but there aren't too many carvers and even to a good one this sort of thing would be quite a challenge. But with CNC that is within reach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTWm22D9zgY


In some ways it helps custom designs come within our grasp that would otherwise be quite impractical.

If you made a door with it and created all the stiles and rails and the panels by CNC and assembled it I dont think it would make you less of a craftsman but perhaps a much more efficient one. even the fancy fretwork and "carvings" on old Victorian homes were made possible by the invent of specialized industrial machinery. Really the only difference is that now we have figured out how to make computers control the machines. that was a huge advancement in technology. Like it or not once you open Pandora's box you can't put it back. Stuff doesn't get "un-invented"

I agree about the beauty of hand made things. I'm a woodworker too and I put pride in my work as well and I'm not disputing your point that some of the charm is lost when things are just so easy.

My point is that newer and better tools bring certain types of work within reach that are otherwise impractical and we are seeing an effect from that in our world around us.

so for example yes you could probably make a table with queen Anne legs or nice spade legs but now you could send the table legs out or invest 50K in a machine and produce a table with carved legs.

while the factories in china can and do crank out so much stuff it gets boring , even a craftsman with a one man show can now do things that weren't' really in his grasp and that can spur creativity. CNC does tend to make factories crank stuff out like crazy , and that can be boring but it also allows crafts people to do more custom work. Since what is possible has radically changed I think this will also affect the buildings we build moving forward.

It's possible now to do a 3D scan of an antique leg and reproduce it, even the flaws. and no matter what you make from wood there will always be flaws.

Another effect at play is because of CNC it is now easy to download an existing file, that could be a table leg for example. then you can tweak the file and create your own design and basically hit print and make one. then you can go back and do revisions and corrections... the designs weren't invented by one guy they were ideas that had been passed down and tweaked throughout time with many adding their take on it. What CNC can do, other than just producing things quickly is make it easier for people to involve their own designs into existing products.. that's sort of how you get to the design for a "better mousetrap" it wasn't necessarily one guy that had a vision and a breakthrough. More often it is a design that has been copied and improved upon.
so I think that technology and CNC may actually escalate the rate of invention or creativeness and in the future we may see more custom ideas at work. That's not necessarily all bad. It can be exciting too.

Phil

[Al F. Furnituremaker]

If your goal is to make money by pumping stuff out of your shop as fast as you can, either one of a kind or multiples, than CNC is fine. You are then nothing more than a small scale factory with nothing of yourself in the product.

I consider a craftsman a person who not only designs (even modifying other designs), but one that makes the item, using their talent and hands. There is more to applying a craft than using software and a computer. With the advent of software, computers, and CNC, true craftsmen are a dying breed, as are the items they create.

The McMansions of today will never equal the handcrafted mansions of the past where craftsman worked for months/years applying their crafts. So, to answer the original question; No, proper houses can't be built anymore, only cookie-cutter buildings using quick and dirty methods.

[phil]

Interesting topic and I hope you didn't feel insulted by my comment AL that sure wasn't what I intended.

I saw a lot of changes through my previous career in printing where people often felt hurt by the company they work for because the company took on new processes and bought newer machinery and that usually meant downsizing the workforce. Of course I wasn't to blame personally it is just the way technology advances. many in my lifetime have had several careers due to technological advancements.

I guess it depends how you define craftsmanship though. with reference to woodworking one might say well it isn't done right if it isn't all done by hand tools. Others would counter why would you cut a board with a handsaw when you can just use an electric saw. Would a woodworker that uses more advanced machinery be less of a craftsman? Is designing a new autocad file for a table leg based on a classic design with some changes due to his artistic notions not a craftsman to the same degree as a guy drawing his new design with a pencil?

[Manalto]

I think there's room for both, depending on the application. There is, however, nothing as gratifying as a piece of furniture whose woods have been selected by an experienced, discerning eye and crafted carefully by hand.

[Al F. Furnituremaker]

No offense taken. This subject can be debated forever with many different viewpoints. I think though that this forum in itself and specifically this thread is testament to the value and quality of craftsmanship done with the hand and heart vs. a machine and in particular CNC.

I am an engineer and in my previous career embraced all the technology. I worked for a company that pushed the limits of technology. We used to joke that we were too dumb to know that it couldn't be done. I designed hardware, designed and wrote software, and managed multi-million dollar programs. It was an industry where the new was absoutely better than the old.

But. There are things that technology has cheapened. I have yet to see a piece of furniture come into my shop that was made 15-20 years ago, or even yesterday, that is built better than something built 50-100 years ago. Of course there are the exceptions. There was cheap junk built long ago as well as high quality stuff built now. I still stand by the notion that custom made furniture built by an individual experienced craftsman is of higher quality than factory made, and I think the same goes for old houses.