I don't think they are even capable of building proper houses anymore

[Gothichome]

"in other words to build a visual replica of an old house but with newer techniques and materials would make sense to me otherwise I dont' see the return in such an investment. Its possible but it would be a money pit and not very practical so no one really does that."

Phill, I think this is the crux of the problem in building new old homes. As JRC has pointed out, it could be done, and Vala's link to prove it can be done. People just aren't interested in paying a skilled tradesman for something unique and of quality, that's is the reason we no longer see homes being built as they were a hundred years ago. Old homes, when they were built were made to be handed down the generations, now the view is very short sighted to what will sell in the next ten years.
And that's why we see disjointed (transitional, as Lily called them) styling in modern homes.
Now to stir the pot a bit, let me put this out, what about those catalogue homes and early suburban tract homes ( unlike the grand Vic I posted) Essentially, most filled a need for low cost homes for the working classes. Something similar in market to today's new track homes, only not built so cheap in construction. We have a few folks here in the District who own and cherish them. Not only the folks here but others outside our little enclave who lovingly call them mid century modern. In their time I'm sure they were looked down on as uninspired boxes. And yet we all like them done in period. Are today's transitional homes the next mid century modern sixty years from now?

[Lily left the valley]

"in other words to build a visual replica of an old house but with newer techniques and materials would make sense to me otherwise I dont' see the return in such an investment. Its possible but it would be a money pit and not very practical so no one really does that."

Phill, I think this is the crux of the problem in building new old homes. As JRC has pointed out, it could be done, and Vala's link to prove it can be done. People just aren't interested in paying a skilled tradesman for something unique and of quality, that's is the reason we no longer see homes being built as they were a hundred years ago. Old homes, when they were built were made to be handed down the generations, now the view is very short sighted to what will sell in the next ten years.
And that's why we see disjointed (transitional, as Lily called them) styling in modern homes.
Now to stir the pot a bit, let me put this out, what about those catalogue homes and early suburban tract homes ( unlike the grand Vic I posted) Essentially, most filled a need for low cost homes for the working classes. Something similar in market to today's new track homes, only not built so cheap in construction. We have a few folks here in the District who own and cherish them. Not only the folks here but others outside our little enclave who lovingly call them mid century modern. In their time I'm sure they were looked down on as uninspired boxes. And yet we all like them done in period. Are today's transitional homes the next mid century modern sixty years from now?

I couldn't help but think of "Mid Century Modest", coined by the lady behind Retro Renovation. The Mid-Century Modest Manifesto

I think this is about much more than if folks are "interested" or not. Do I think many have accepted (grudgingly or not) how things have become? Yes. Do they like it? For many, I would say "NO."

I do wonder sometimes, about not only our current disposable culture, but also how owning a home went from being a security and sign of adulthood to being an investment. I also think about our culture of stuff, and how you can't find a pay phone hardly anywhere in most places, nor, increasingly, find as many homes that have a main phone instead of everyone with their own mobiles instead. The latter bit gives me thought as to how much money folks can manage to hold onto ("But Mom! Everyone in my class has a smart phone!") in order to try to be either working class or middle class successfully here in the States.

There's also the physical mobility factor to consider. Out of my small resort town high school class, somewhere between 3/4 and 1/2 stayed in town after college. Some moved later due to jobs. From my college, well over half the people I knew would wind up working no where near their hometown. At best, they could hope for a 1-2 hour drive, and that was a small percentage. (More on this down a bit.)

Certain industries have also changed. A friend of mine was transferred to San Fran because they simply closed down the offices in LA. He doesn't even code, and still, because he was a manager of whatever the magic title is he does that relates to selling cars, they had to be nearer to the coders who build the websites--not the manufacturer of said cars (that's another country)--but still, a consolidation measure. He already didn't live even a day's drive from his home town. Now, it's sort of closer because he moved that bit north, but still more than a day's drive. He always flies instead. There's also the loss of manufacturing, automation, less unions, and eroding worker and consumer protections. (Some backsliding, some just gone.)

We also run into the issue of how builders and contractors have changed over time. Don't forget also, the rise of HOA's, and those additional "costs". Those early tract houses have given way to another path of following the Jones family into financial oblivion--McMansions and townhouses where you're lucky if they let you plant some flowers on the 2 x 6 bed in front of "your" townhouse--forget choose paint colors or window type or even dare to suggest something for the overall landscaping since everything has to be "uniform" since the Association gets a discount for bulk. This is partly due to how parcels of land are valued here. Unless you are in a desirable neighborhood/county/whatever, the structure is what is given weight in the cost assessment. Comps are more important than good craftsmanship, and we all know comps = trends more often than not. So the professionals decided if the money was in square footage of house and what "comps" you could cram into it...you got McMansions and now that the mortgage crash has happened, chopping up lots into smaller and smaller parcels, all the while set backs have shrunk to illogical levels even for suburbs. This latter bit still bothers me thinking about what in my hometown area started in Ocean City, but later spread to the Wildwoods as well.

As to folks who aren't interested...I know a lot of folks who desire, but do not have the money for such, even if a more modest fare. Some were brought up without learning any useful skills that would help keep costs down in building their own home, barely know how to put paint on a brush properly, and so would have to hire out every last thing. (And then there's codes, and engineers, and so on you have to have depending...) Maybe if our culture hadn't told everyone that since America is about bootstrappiness and upward mobility, how many would have gone to trade school instead of college? Had the loan institutions for said college not gone haywire, would the price of college also not gone kazoo--with more "profit" oriented colleges? Instead of losing 4-8 years to get a degree that will at least guarantee you a job in retail or maybe management at a local fast food joint, perhaps they would have learned a trade? Or not needed at least a four year degree to get an entry level job because companies still trained even paper pushers (even if they would prefer you get the 2 year degree)? Let's also not forget about pace stuttering teacher's salaries, even as more and more is expected of them, especially with more and more schools being open year round now? And on and on...things have changed.

As to the ones who could do it? Well, a modest home, perhaps. If they don't have kids, and both spouses work and especially if both had full scholarships to college. A lot of folks I know are self employed, and/or both spouses are working and still barely making ends meet. Even if they could find land, or find land with a derelict home, if they aren't folks who have no savings, it's really not easy to get a mortgage on a home that doesn't exist yet. (See culture of things above again.) It's hard enough to find a relative "fixer upper" anymore. (We got lucky. Long distance renting didn't work well for the owner, so selling the place was better than continuing her spiral into deeper debt. When we saw how much of the closing costs went to pay debt, it was staggering. She did not make much money selling. This also makes me think of the person I used to manage for--he originally bought the house because he was working in that town. He now works in an entirely different part of the country and cannot sell that house as a quarter of the town is up for sale. He'd have to sell at a huge loss just to get rid of it--which he ultimately still might do.)

If they have the funds, do they still live anywhere near family so they can not be a crazy drive away from the site each day? When I was growing up, my mother's family (3 brothers plus her) all lived within a one block radius except one uncle who lived closer to the city (being Philly) due to work. My father's side of the family (him being the youngest of three brothers and one sister) was a bit further spread, but still within a half hour's drive of one another except for my father.

By the time my generation rolled around, on my mom's side, only one of my uncle's three kids stayed within a twenty minute drive (during off season traffic, I should add) of our hometown (one of those three also bought a home in the same neighborhood, just a 1/2 block over). Two of that side's cousins live in Kansas now (work related move), a third in northern PA (same), and of course I've been all over the country and am now in MA. The central NJ uncle never had kids. My Dad's side, they're scattered a little less distantly I think roughly 1/2 of all my first cousins on that side are still in the state of PA. (Don't keep in touch much--so based on the last "news".) Of those, not all of them live within a 20 minute drive. That's out of a dozen, including myself.

A lot of my friends are the same way, whether from my home town or not, and most of them it was due to work or marriage (and usually more spouse's job, rather than being closer to spouse's family). They live nowhere as near to family as they used to by our generation, and now their kids are starting to set out on their own (or already have) as well.

The support network in such a case is not there. In some rare cases, their parents eventually moved closer to them so they could at least see the grandkids more than once a year, but that often meant they're either in a retirement community with an age limit, a retirement home where they have an apartment or room, or a townhouse with maybe one spare bedroom. So now you have to rent while you build, especially if you live in an area where you can't just camp out on the property in the meantime, nor have campgrounds nearby either. Sure, you can pay someone else to do most of the building if you can somehow "move back home" for the build time (and often, the reason that area is picked for the build is due to the owners already living in a place far away from family because that's where they have work), but how do you supervise? How often do you visit the site? It's a lot of costs to add on top of the desired quality.

When Sean and I met, we both were making just over 50K a year, gross. Then he lost his job to outsourcing the year we were married. He had a hard time finding work, and we eventually went to CA for work. Initially, it was rough, but it was starting to pick up a bit. The crash in LA started about 2007 when the practical effects related jobs started taking the hit as CGI was really taking over. This was also roughly after the Writer's Strike gave the baby industry of reality shows its BOOM time because they were so much easier to "script" than regular TV. It has taken him 14 years to even come close to his old income, let alone what the equivalent would be today. I am still far behind, and I did not take time off to raise kids. Some of this was due to health issues I was struggling with at the time, and which we did not have the insurance to cover to keep me healthy enough for keeping even a retail job. The sorts of work I had grown used to was now flooded with loads of folks losing their jobs at much better reputed institutions that I had ever worked for, so it was hard to compete, and I wound up having to drop out and seek other work which had its own fits and starts.

We barely managed to buy our home this year, and the main reason we could afford it is because we left expensive NJ to move to a much cheaper in many regards MA. (Yes, many do not understand this. It's true.) We only managed to do so because 1) we had never bought before, so could take advantage of a first time program; 2) Sean's mom helped out when we had that awful shock surprise from the credit issue we had no idea existed; 3) we used a personal line of credit for part of the down payment, and 4) scaling back whole scale on costs in ways most folks (especially with kids) could not do. If we had a major emergency, medical, fire, or Sean got injured outside work (since he's still not officially full time and thus benefits like earning leave time), we would likely lose the house.

I mention this because I know we are not unusual for America. We are still very house poor, and are still living paycheck to paycheck. He has partial benefits now, but they are not great, and we can't afford to up them to a better tier. It would be the same if he dropped the PO related benefits, and we went through Mass Health. Even if one of the carriers at his PO retires this year, and he goes FT with all the benefits that entails, it will still take us a while to get our heads above water because of the LOC, because of the funds we had to borrow from his mom. Still, we don't regret that we didn't wait when things got super tight, because if he was FT, we would not have qualified for the First Time program--he would make too much money, and it would have taken us much longer to save up the more traditional down payment because we'd still be renting--despite all the financial sacrifices we would have continued.

If we have become the new average Americans without kids, how on earth can folks even consider building a new old home? (Especially if work might uproot them at whatever point and say, "The new hot place to be is ...*throws a dart at a map* Toledo! We're going to move everyone to Toledo.")

Sorry if this is rambly. I don't really have time to try to be more concise.

[vvzz]

"In their time I'm sure they were looked down on as uninspired boxes. And yet we all like them done in period. Are today's transitional homes the next mid century modern sixty years from now?

I still think they are crappy uninspired boxes(same goes for Wright houses) More generally, I think architecture as an art form died after WWII. I can appreciate some modern buildings from engineering standpoint, but culturally they have zero value to me.

[phil]

a major sticking point is the dimensions of lumber. to get older dimension 2x4 would cost a lot. You can get a little mill to mill you some but then it isn't graded lumber and the engineers want to specify certain grades. I imagine they would let you overbuild it but they may not pass things like spans quite as easily with that sort of lumber.
also with interior and exterior trim and doors and things. when most of our houses were built these items were standard. They were what was readily available. Nowadays it is difficult to get to those dimensions because it all has to be custom milled or re-sawn from existing dimensions with a massive waste factor. So now when they attempt to replicate things they try to fake it by using smaller dimensions and it doesn't look the same.
Myself I try to latch onto reclaimed lumber and things like old doors are like gold because they are nice straight grain and larger in dimension. a full dimension 2x4 looks a lot more sturdy that a modern 1.5x 3.5" the older one is 8 square inches in cross section , the new one is 5.25 it's only got 2/3rds as much wood in it. plus ours were fir usually not spruce pine etc.. so you are talking roughly half the strength? yet they still built stick houses with the same stud spacing. then using chipboard where ours used fir shiplap all that put together. You dont; see the difference so much but ours are twice as strong. The new ones do meet code. so in a lot of ways the standards now are a lot weaker than they were. flashing and covering materials are better now but old fir studs wont' rot out nearly as quickly as the new stuff. a lot already failed because of water infiltration issues. I think a lot is around these new windows and also designs dont' have the overhang.. that overhang protects the house a lot. it also really affects the visual appearance.
I see a lot of the modern trim is made from smaller dimension. the corners on mine have a 3/16 radius. they seem to always go for tighter radius on the corners, or they neglect to radius the corners. no huge savings there but it affects the look a lot.
Phil

[GibsonGM]

".Are today's transitional homes the next mid century modern sixty years from now?

You're assuming they'll still be standing, and be habitable, in 60 years

In my work as a painter, I've seen more MODERN homes (2x6 framing, spray foam, extra tight super high efficiency...) with mold issues than old ones. Almost falling apart 6 years after they're built and I do paint job #2...soffits flaking, wood getting punky, was never primed all 6 sides...ventilation is a real problem. Not as noticeable from the ground. For a while.

But they saved $600 on heating over the course of those 6 years, though...

[Gothichome]

Gibson, I hear you. I am a fan of non air tight homes, old or new.

[GibsonGM]

Gibson, I hear you. I am a fan of non air tight homes, old or new.

ABSOLUTELY. I had mine insulated with dense pack, and the contractor was amazed that I do have some areas that aren't air-tight. Like, under doors a bit, not much in the ceiling over the ell, etc. It did its job perfectly this winter, we have no drafts, but the house can breathe.
There's a point where you're living in a zip loc bag!

[Lily left the valley]

Gibson, I hear you. I am a fan of non air tight homes, old or new.

ABSOLUTELY. I had mine insulated with dense pack, and the contractor was amazed that I do have some areas that aren't air-tight. Like, under doors a bit, not much in the ceiling over the ell, etc. It did its job perfectly this winter, we have no drafts, but the house can breathe.
There's a point where you're living in a zip loc bag!

I've read up a lot on the latest "green" tech for insulation, and I've seen so many horror stories about this exact problem. I'm definitely in the "I want my home to be able to breathe a bit" category.

We need to insulate here because there is currently zero insulation in the attic (unless you count those awesome antique quilts), although some foam board with the backing was put between our original siding and the current mix of AC & fiber siding. I've already researched quite a few folks in the area to narrow down the list of whom we might hire for at least a consultation before insulating the attic this year. Most of them, you can see on their sites examples of how they're just following "standards" instead of using their brains. That's helped narrow down the list pretty fast.

[GibsonGM]

That's helped narrow down the list pretty fast.

Yeah, you definitely need to be careful! The guy I used came well-recommended and has done many old homes for 25 years. He is a contractor, not just an insulator, so he understood the little 'places' that could be an issue....like having a guy standing downstairs just "spotting" our plaster, for one, as they packed the cellulose, to be sure nothing was happening to it.

He didn't actually freak when I said "ok, we're good, enough insulation and tightness!", was just curious why I didn't want 'extra' put here and there, didn't want to go around can-foaming everything under the sun....I have 24" loose pack in my attic as is now, ha ha. It certainly needs to be uniform, well-packed for moisture resistance/settling....but he did think I was a little wacky when I was like "no storm door, we're ok" and things like that. No baseboard caulking, no replacement windows....

Down there, you should be able to find a historic society or 'homestead' that has contractors doing work and find someone to suit your needs with a solid background and references, I'd think! Worcester, Leominster, Fitchburg's gotta have someone good...

[Lily left the valley]

That's helped narrow down the list pretty fast.

Yeah, you definitely need to be careful! The guy I used came well-recommended and has done many old homes for 25 years. He is a contractor, not just an insulator, so he understood the little 'places' that could be an issue....like having a guy standing downstairs just "spotting" our plaster, for one, as they packed the cellulose, to be sure nothing was happening to it.

He didn't actually freak when I said "ok, we're good, enough insulation and tightness!", was just curious why I didn't want 'extra' put here and there, didn't want to go around can-foaming everything under the sun....I have 24" loose pack in my attic as is now, ha ha. It certainly needs to be uniform, well-packed for moisture resistance/settling....but he did think I was a little wacky when I was like "no storm door, we're ok" and things like that. No baseboard caulking, no replacement windows....

Down there, you should be able to find a historic society or 'homestead' that has contractors doing work and find someone to suit your needs with a solid background and references, I'd think! Worcester, Leominster, Fitchburg's gotta have someone good...

I've been looking into a few sources for recommendations like that. I know Hubbardston has one, and I have a name for a local guy who's known for knowing things about historic homes, so he may be able to point me in some directions as well. I tried the library and the local museum about societies, but nada.

We did have one fella stop by and knock this year asking us if we were interested in replacement windows or vinyl siding. I was very clear when I explained why not, and I'm hoping maybe word will spread so we won't get hassled like some folks do. It was a nice short chat, and no feathers were ruffled on either side, so I was happy with that.