Kitchen Configuration?

[Gothichome]

Manalto, my comment, was in no way intended to discourage your thoughts or ideas on how you would like your old home to work for you, or instill a reluctance to participate in the District. All our views and suggestions here in the District have equal weight. My post was just a suggestion ( obviously poorly worded) that before moving things about, just take a little time to feel the home and it's attributes.

Ron

[phil]

I dont' think anyone on the board has tried to insult you. Gothichome's comments were only suggesting the open opinion that perhaps if you live in it for a bit then you may find the kitchen was designed in such a way that you didn't need to change things around as much as perhaps you first thought. The term "remuddle" has often been used on this forum to describe the act of changing things around, There was no negative connotation intended.
Of course we have differences in opinion on the board and often we come here to discuss different techniques and there is some brainstorming involved. That's when you throw all your ideas in a pot and pick the ones you like the best. In the mix there may be some ideas that are out in left field or that dont' align with your intentions or ideas. - so take the good with the bad. Many on the forum are restoring their houses with originality in mind and many discussions here are around preserving the heritage look and feel of you home while maintaining livability.

[Kashka-Kat]

How long have you lived in your house? If you are new to old houses I would encourage you to live with it a while - just to get a feel for what the orginal design was intended. There is no reason you cant get it to work better for you, while still maintaining its original character. You're lucky that you have something of its original bones and that it hasnt been ... errr, ok Ill say it, remuddled to death by a previous owner. You can make it your own and still have a great old house vibe that will fit with the house.

If the door is in the way - why not just remove it. It does look like it would be a PITA and youd get better light and ventilation. A scullery or washing up sink makes an incredible amt of sense. A second smaller food prep sink in the kitchen makes sense too - why not, if youd be plumbing in there anyway? Ive recently seen articles re: people getting tired of the open kitchen concept. Who wants to see- and smell - dirty dishes from the living room Of course, the vast majority of contracters and HGTV viewers havent gotten the memo yet, but the point is, one shouldnt assume that a modern or functioning kitchen HAS to be what they're showing us on Houzz and Hgtv. A food storage pantry is an old house idea that has been revived - I would certainly keep that function.

Finally just to note that people I think often throw words like remuddling around as short-hand without intending to necessarily diss anyone personally - "remuddling" can be used pejoratively, but also has a specific meaning - ie to extensively alter a an old house in a way that doesnt really "improve it" - more like makes a mish mash out of it. Gosh I dont want that for you either, OP!!! But thats not to say it cant be improved/worked with - I dont think anyone is saying that.

Similarly in places like Houzz people throw around negative words about old houses too without really thinking clearly about what exactly they mean - a "rabbit warren of tiny rooms" is one put-down I often hear, the implication being that walls have to come down to open it up. When the reality is that most old houses Ive been in, by virtue of LARGE and plentiful windows, tall (8 ft or more) ceilings, etc. rarely feel claustrophobic and usually have great air flow and light. So this "rabbit warren" meme is just IMHO making a problem out of something that very often doesnt really exist. In the case of your kitchen, the extra walls could have the benefit of giving you extra places for shelves/storage - a good thing, no? Maybe ultimatelyyou'll decide otherwise, but the point is, things were designed the way they were for a reason and its good to have these reasons in mind as you plan and gather ideas.

[Manalto]

I think I'll rip out all the walls and have an open-concept kitchen, with an eight-burner commercial stove, Sub-Zero refrigerator in black stainless and a spanking new farmhouse sink set into an enameled lava counter-top with handmade subway tile backsplash. Floors will be Brazilian walnut. Other than the natural tones of the floor, no colors will startle the senses or sully the purity of the room's appearance.

[1918ColonialRevival]

How long have you lived in your house? If you are new to old houses I would encourage you to live with it a while - just to get a feel for what the orginal design was intended. There is no reason you cant get it to work better for you, while still maintaining its original character. You're lucky that you have something of its original bones and that it hasnt been ... errr, ok Ill say it, remuddled to death by a previous owner. You can make it your own and still have a great old house vibe that will fit with the house.

If the door is in the way - why not just remove it. It does look like it would be a PITA and youd get better light and ventilation. A scullery or washing up sink makes an incredible amt of sense. A second smaller food prep sink in the kitchen makes sense too - why not, if youd be plumbing in there anyway? Ive recently seen articles re: people getting tired of the open kitchen concept. Who wants to see- and smell - dirty dishes from the living room Of course, the vast majority of contracters and HGTV viewers havent gotten the memo yet, but the point is, one shouldnt assume that a modern or functioning kitchen HAS to be what they're showing us on Houzz and Hgtv. A food storage pantry is an old house idea that has been revived - I would certainly keep that function.

Totally agree with this.

I advise anyone who buys an older house to live in it for several months before embarking on any serious renovation projects. This lets you get to know the house and you may realize that things you thought were a serious issue turned out to not be an issue at all. Or, it might help you realize that things you originally thought weren't a big deal need to be moved ahead in the order of priority.

[Lily left the valley]

Related to this kitchen discussion, when pasta was mentioned, it made me curious as to when exactly it came over to the US as well as more common in an average household.

Reading up on that has been very enlightening, especially when certain sites are very particular about how "pasta" is to be used only for Italian style noodles.

I might never have thought to look that up if not for thinking about how making pasta in the kitchen's current layout more often than not would feel cumbersome.

So thanks for bringing it up!

In case anyone is interested in reading up, here's two articles (but let's not hijack the thread if we can help it or Mick will scold me!):
https://www.dirjournal.com/blogs/noodles-pasta-china-america/
http://www.thenibble.com/reviews/main/pastas/pasta-history.asp

[Willa]

I think I'll rip out all the walls and have an open-concept kitchen, with an eight-burner commercial stove

Manalto, I give you this kitchen with a 10 burner stove to better. It is approximately the size of my entire main floor. Who needs living rooms, or a study anymore - having 1/2 of your home be a kitchen is where it is at now:

5-Prospect-St-6.jpg (56.06 KiB) Viewed 1772 times

(Actually that kitchen is from a Masonic Temple in New York state somewhere, that is for sale. The scale of it is pretty amazing. )

[Manalto]

Related to this kitchen discussion, when pasta was mentioned, it made me curious as to when exactly it came over to the US as well as more common in an average household.

I'll offer one anecdotal piece of evidence before I read your links. In the 1980s, my boss (from Uniontown, PA) told me, when he was a kid (1930s) his mother introduced spaghetti to the family menu. It was considered odd and groundbreaking in their community of friends and relatives. Incidentally, although the word "pasta" is Italian, my Italian-immigrant grandparents rarely used it. "Macaroni" was far, far more commonly employed, once in a while "spaget"(they dropped the ending) or, for special occasions, tortellini or ravioli (handmade).

... let's not hijack the thread if we can help it or Mick will scold me!)

Please do! Perhaps it will stop the flogging of that poor, dead horse.

Lily, you've understood my intent when posting this topic better than anyone. I just wanted to figure out how to make the existing kitchen practical. Can o' worms.

I give you this kitchen with a 10 burner stove to better.

I'm so used to cramped kitchens, I wouldn't know what to do with all that. I'd be like that chick, Babette!

[Kashka-Kat]

Oh gosh Im sorry, somehow I missed a whole string of messages. Guess I didnt need to blather on as I did.

Can you post room diagram/dimensions. You have the big windows and a bunch of doors, but you also have significant amt of wall space - and ample storage options w/ the two pantries. Maybe there would be room in the big room for a big work table, which was the early 1900s version of the "island." Sorta like this one here, only bigger - this one lookss kind of wimpy and small for the space.

early 1900s kitch.png (312.91 KiB) Viewed 1759 times

Guess the thing to do would be first decide on useages for ea of the areas - eg washing up, cookware/dishware storage, food storage, food prep/cooking, planning, gathering, eating breakfast. Will you be using your dining room for dining? Is that it with the red carpet thru the pantry?

[Lily left the valley]

{snip}Lily, you've understood my intent when posting this topic better than anyone. I just wanted to figure out how to make the existing kitchen practical. Can o' worms.

Aye, we all eventually find that can of worms and have to steer accordingly. As you've already noticed, sarcasm often gets lost when things get heated, so I don't recommend it.

In all honesty, I was really glad you mentioned the pasta and the fridge as an obstacle, because that gave me a practical reference to base my thinking. This was around the time I found myself counting squares on the main kitchen floor, wondering if they were 1' x 1' so I could do a graph paper work through. (I like doing that, putting the visual in front of me so I know what my brain is thinking can still work.) I know the windows will be tricky to work around, and I only noticed the one outlet in that spot that you mentioned would work for the fridge, but could cause flow issues. I should go back and look at the images again, in due time.

The one thing that did occur to me is to ask how many flue/stacks does your shared chimney have for the kitchen? Some local codes forbid fuel mixing, and you mentioned something about your Bengal stove having a heater, and I'm not sure what that means. I wasn't sure what your furnace/boiler is using either, so you might want to check with local code on that. If your whole house plus the heater element of the stove are gas, you may be just fine. Yet if they are different, it might require running separate flues if possible. Sometimes they won't fit, as certain types of fireplaces or stoves have mandated minimum sizes. (I only know this from a property I managed prior.) So, a pellet stove, for instance, can have a smaller flue than a boiler or woodstove.

That thought sprang to mind because we're currently trying to find out if our home had a fireplace that may have later been removed because of the code change, since we are a single chimney house. We wondered this initially because the mortgage appraiser said we had a fireplace in the home. So one of the things I've been looking into for here is what would be required (and budgeted) if we did find there was a fireplace prior, as we'd really like to have one.

I'm also pondering a few things regarding the fridge. We did something not period correct but still fit in our tiny 11' x 7 1/2' kitchen. (This includes one full wall of 2' deep cabinetry, so it's more like 11x 5 1/2' to work with.) On the opposite wall, which has the doorway in, we have our looks like an 1800s wood stove, but was built in MC with electric fittings stove that measures in at 38", then comes the half hoosier at 39", then the 19" for the mini fridge that has a separate freezer compartment. The fridge does overlap the doorway trim, so not ideal, but it all fit and I was thrilled. Now that fridge is actually not what I wanted, but it was what we could afford at the time thinking we'd at least get a separate freezer later when funds allowed for bulk meat freezing (and ice cream, I admit it), as the house did not come with any appliances. What I wanted was to get the 4 cu. ft. separate fridge/freezer, and stack them, freezer on bottom, so that I could build a faux surround on the front 3 sides that would mimic a certain cabinet I'd seen in a period advertisement. Buying both then was not in the budget, so what we have was the short term compromise. That may still come to pass unless I stumble upon a refurbished period fridge when I can afford it that is the right size all by itself, and then we'd have a freezer downstairs in the cellar. But at least with this decision, we, being a household of two who very rarely have company, could easily live out of the fridge/freezer combo, given our eating habits. Why am I mentioning this, you might be wondering? I guess I'm warning you that I love to think out of the box.

I know you mentioned you weren't keen on under the counter styles. From your images, I can only see basic shelves through the door of the storage pantry. You mentioned cabinetry but not if any actually exists in there now. (In your OP, you may have updated that and I missed it.) What you can do with the under the counter styles, though, is put them on the counter, or put them on top of storage platforms like folks do with washers & dryers these days for a partially raised counter area or a section that may be floor to ceiling area too. The lower storage if you went the platform route could be for lesser used items like holiday roasting pans or whatever.

Now, as to the sink dilemma. I used to have (until a certain someone forgot he was boiling water and wrecked the pot) a pasta only pot (or asparagus) that had a separate bin that went inside where you could lift it right out with the pasta in that strainer insert. It was made out of a thinner metal to help the water heat faster, hence why an overboil was a disaster. Some, like angel hair, didn't always co-operate completely due to the hole sizes, but it worked great for most of the pasta we typically make. I haven't looked for a replacement in a while, but there could easily be one now that had holes even angel hair won't wiggle through. If you had something like that, it could help to a degree with the kitchen crossings, but I also don't think it's crazy to have a secondary small sink for quick fills and empties nearer the stove either.

This would leave the scullery intact and free for dirty dishes in its entirety while cooking and baking. The smaller supplemental sink would just do what needs doing. As to the door, how often would someone be at the sink while dishes are coming in? You could also (and I know some folks will hate this) put frosted or stained glass in the top half so anyone trying to come through there would see the outline of someone standing there, and then act accordingly.

So...how big are those tiles, anyhoo? And what's the measurement between the floor and the bottom of the windows? How wide/deep is the Bengal? (And when do we get to see pictures?)

If I have measurements to work with, even just rough--don't need in between each doorway exact, that's easier for me to do my work through on paper suggestions. So if ya want, note some measurements here, and I'm happy to fiddle around, as we've got loads of rain coming this week and I'm a happy constructive procrastinator.

Lastly, for what it's worth, they called them baking pantries because all the prep was done in there. So no actual baking, but all the lead ins and afters too.

My , trying to get the conversation back to working with what you have while still making it work for you too.