Kitchen Configuration?

[Manalto]

Thank you all for your suggestions; I have much to think about. I do, despite my grousing, appreciate the experience of living with unusual features. (In fact, I sought it out, rejecting, in my search, newer - but boring - houses in better condition.) I see the sink as the busiest part of the kitchen, so I guess that's why I'm a bit hung up on the placement of the swinging door. There won't be a lot of traffic through the house, so it's probably a non-issue. The kitchen and its pantries are plenty big for my purposes, so no expansion is needed. I was just looking for convenience and flow, working with what's there. Thanks again for your input; it was really helpful.

[phil]

others are better at visualizing spaces, but a few suggestions.

#1 look at the work triangle. I personally wouldn't allow the fridge or sink or stove to be in separate rooms. for a while I tried having the fride on an opposite wall to the sink wiht table between and it drove me nuts and I dont; even cook that much.

do a layout that is to scale looking down. draw it out and make proportional cutouts for your sink, the stove, fridge, table and chairs. you need enough room to pul out the chairs comfortably.

If you move the sink you need to consider the stack as well as the drain. You can check your regs and you might be able to put a "cheater vent" it's a device that lets air in not out. it;s best if you have a stack and its best if it is close , at least within 10 feet or so.

adding a second small sink might work fine.

think of how authentic you want it. older kitchens were often shallower. modern dimensions work into proportions relating to sheet goods so maybe that would be 2 feet or it might work inot 1/3 of a sheet of plywood for the boxes.

what I did , I really like. but it isn't authentic. I bought a blower to go over the stoove that blows outside. it was designed to mount into the upper cabinet and has no hood that sticks out. to incorporate this I made my uppers 4 inches deeper.

I had already built the lowers so I made my own countertop 4 inches deeper, so I have lots of room behind the sink it isnt' pushed up against the backsplash, so I can put soap and things back there. this is a cheap way to gain counter space.

If I did it again I'd make the drawers and cupboards also 4 inches deeper. mine has a little lost space behind the lowers but it still gives a lot more space than it would, and I dint'; loose wall space to do this. I dont' now if it would work for you. you can;t use a stock countertop. what I dud was buy the laminate and made a wood strip to function as the roundover.

turn your layout into a to-scale board game. You perhaps can't move the stove or that neat sink, this will help communicate the ideas you have and all you need to do is snap some photos of your game pieces , the table, fridge etc situated in different places. you will quickly rule out all the possibilities you like without going nuts with descriptions.

the distance between the uppers and lowers was lower in older homes. now we have microwaves and toasters and coffee machines etc so you need more room or somewhere to put them. modern uppers are higher.

lots of kitchens have places that collect dust above the cabinets. I'd rather make them taller even if you need something to step on to get stuff there, you will use the storage and those places just collect greasy dust. If your cabinets reach the ceiling you may have squareness issues and maybe a molding will help close any gaps.

you can do things like hide the microwave or have a place for the toaster so you can clear it from the counter. depends how fussy you are about doing stuff like that. I'd leave it on the counter myself even if I use it once a week but others would be more fussy and consider that clutter.

keep in mind garbage, recycling and food waste bins. even if you don't separate as much as some the rules for garbage pickup are changing and the bins need to go somewhere. think if the future. many have a waste food container and here anyway they are trending towards not letting you put used food in the garbage it has to go into compost bins with the lawn trimmings etc.. or some compost but that encourages rodents sometimes.

heat vents - does your new plan block them? I had one that wanted to be under the sink and I made ducting to vent it out right in front of the sink by the floor. it's nice to have warm feet in the morning so I liked that spot a lot.

electrical and insulation. get that worked out first. you may have to open walls. codes have changed and dont' quote me but you need lots of plugs and each plug needs to be on separate breakers in the kitchen , not like bedrooms as the kitchen appliances can draw a lot.. so codes have changed.
you might want some task lighting

don't put a plug too close to the sink. even if your stove is gas you might want to run the wire for the option of electric. . also TV, internet, cable, phone, alarm systems maybe a wire for an outdoor digital antenna .. run any wiring you need in first so you aren't' fishing later.

if you are putting cabinets make sure the wall is flat behind them you dont; want to have to make kluges because of warped or out of square items. you might be able to make up "story poles" to fit the cabinets. it's just a stick you put against a wall and use as a reference during cabinet layout etc but if things are not square they can show more than a tape measure or make comparisons easier. the story pole can make it harder to make mistakes when measuring as it marks out the distance to the wall more visually than just a number. pull ou tthe square, level etc and check what youmight be up against.. it's easier if you know that first.

a lot of cabinetmakers like to work in millimeters even if they aren't as used to metric , it is easier to mark things off accurately and to do division etc.. your preference of course. to be accurate you can easily mark with a knife by laying it against a metric tape and it is a bit more accurate than using a pencil.

look at your fridge, decide if it may be changed. stoves and dishwashers are often standard but fridges are all over the place, so if you box it in or put cabinets close to it above consider if you might be limiting yourself to choices later. a lot of nice custom kitchens box in the fridge, it can be like a big barrier in the room so think how it may block light etc.
you'll have to make some choices about if you want it to look really authentic to the age or to be a practical mix of old and new. an old kitchen might be great for you but perhaps it influences house value? I think there are lots who feel practicality in the kitchen is most important and some dont' mind making the kitchen a more modern space. no hard rules.

Since I'm re-doing the living room I stuck a loveseat and the TV in the kitchen. I kind of like that but it depends how you use the kitchen. I've seen big kitchens where a couch in the kitchen actually worked well if you use it as an entertainment space as well. in my case the living room is completely separate and with two of us it's kind of nice to be able to sit on the couch together, maybe while keeping an eye on whats cooking at the same time.. but do what works for you.

a lot of the new micro living compartment designs use stools. I hate stools I find they are uncomfortable for longer periods. some like islands with stools and things. I'd rather sit down myself.
If you have room for a nook you can consider that I think you need about 7 feet for one like you'd find in a diner. they have kind of a comfy feel and then you dont;l need to worry about pulling out chairs and them marking up the floor. you could make a little block and call that the nook and see if it fits on the "game board"

once you get close, have a closer look at how drawers pulled out and cabinets open or dishwasher door... to see if you can catch any oversights.

I think a neat gimmick is a sweep hole in the floor. it can be connected to a vacuum underneath and so when you sweep the floor you open the cover, that turns on the vac and you just sweep it down the hole.. if you have laundry a laundry shoot can be a neat feature too.

I don't know if you iron.. if you do you might want an ironing board in the kitchen or even the laundry or maybe just as an authentic feature. some houses even had sort of a half door to hang up laundry without going outside. - if you use a laundry line.

I've been noticing that in a lot of earlier kitchens they put vents in lower cabinet just below the sink, I guess it was a vent so it didn't get stinky? anyway some slots cut in there might be a cheap "feature"

some older houses had a cupboard vented outside for things like potatoes, so they stay cool but dont' want to live in the fridge. maybe some cool storage is still practical today.
In europe they often use smaller fridges , even under the counter. Here in NA we have huge ones. you might consider a small fridge as a workaround? maybe if you have a deep freeze that could be a fridge with freezer instead? I dont' think giant sized fridges are essential but they are nice to have..

look at your own habits, if you lke to drink coffee a lot think about the steps you do to make a pot of coffee and serve it. myself I am always in the fridge for milk for coffee, others have different habits. make it work for you. my work triangle might include the coffee pot. I want it near the fridge and sink to save steps.

[phil]

others are better at visualizing spaces, but a few suggestions.

#1 look at the work triangle. I personally wouldn't allow the fridge or sink or stove to be in separate rooms. for a while I tried having the fride on an opposite wall to the sink wiht table between and it drove me nuts and I dont; even cook that much.

do a layout that is to scale looking down. draw it out and make proportional cutouts for your sink, the stove, fridge, table and chairs. you need enough room to pul out the chairs comfortably.

If you move the sink you need to consider the stack as well as the drain. You can check your regs and you might be able to put a "cheater vent" it's a device that lets air in not out. it;s best if you have a stack and its best if it is close , at least within 10 feet or so.

adding a second small sink might work fine.

future expansion? I have often considered blowing outhe back of my house for an addition , more bedrooms another bath so when I did my layout I kept that wall open so it would be easy to do without changing what's there.

windows. you want your sitting area and the area you eat in to have natural light and to be near a window if possible.. also how does your layout work with the windows? do things apppear concentric or is the window behind the sink shifted over 6 inches one way, for example..

in mine I wanted a nook so I thought ok I can put that on my empty wall.. but then I realized it would look funny being offset from the window.. finally I came to the conclusion I could make a sort of L shaped nook with perhaps a chair on one side and that would fit and look better.. then I dont; need 7 feet for it.



think of how authentic you want it. older kitchens were often shallower. modern dimensions work into proportions relating to sheet goods so maybe that would be 2 feet or it might work inot 1/3 of a sheet of plywood for the boxes.

what I did , I really like. but it isn't authentic. I bought a blower to go over the stoove that blows outside. it was designed to mount into the upper cabinet and has no hood that sticks out. to incorporate this I made my uppers 4 inches deeper.

I had already built the lowers so I made my own countertop 4 inches deeper, so I have lots of room behind the sink it isnt' pushed up against the backsplash, so I can put soap and things back there. this is a cheap way to gain counter space.

If I did it again I'd make the drawers and cupboards also 4 inches deeper. mine has a little lost space behind the lowers but it still gives a lot more space than it would, and I dint'; loose wall space to do this. I dont' now if it would work for you. you can;t use a stock countertop. what I dud was buy the laminate and made a wood strip to function as the roundover.

turn your layout into a to-scale board game. You perhaps can't move the stove or that neat sink, this will help communicate the ideas you have and all you need to do is snap some photos of your game pieces , the table, fridge etc situated in different places. you will quickly rule out all the possibilities you like without going nuts with descriptions.

the distance between the uppers and lowers was lower in older homes. now we have microwaves and toasters and coffee machines etc so you need more room or somewhere to put them. modern uppers are higher.

lots of kitchens have places that collect dust above the cabinets. I'd rather make them taller even if you need something to step on to get stuff there, you will use the storage and those places just collect greasy dust. If your cabinets reach the ceiling you may have squareness issues and maybe a molding will help close any gaps.

you can do things like hide the microwave or have a place for the toaster so you can clear it from the counter. depends how fussy you are about doing stuff like that. I'd leave it on the counter myself even if I use it once a week but others would be more fussy and consider that clutter.

keep in mind garbage, recycling and food waste bins. even if you don't separate as much as some the rules for garbage pickup are changing and the bins need to go somewhere. think if the future. many have a waste food container and here anyway they are trending towards not letting you put used food in the garbage it has to go into compost bins with the lawn trimmings etc.. or some compost but that encourages rodents sometimes.

heat vents - does your new plan block them? I had one that wanted to be under the sink and I made ducting to vent it out right in front of the sink by the floor. it's nice to have warm feet in the morning so I liked that spot a lot.

electrical and insulation. get that worked out first. you may have to open walls. codes have changed and dont' quote me but you need lots of plugs and each plug needs to be on separate breakers in the kitchen , not like bedrooms as the kitchen appliances can draw a lot.. so codes have changed.
you might want some task lighting

don't put a plug too close to the sink. even if your stove is gas you might want to run the wire for the option of electric. . also TV, internet, cable, phone, alarm systems maybe a wire for an outdoor digital antenna .. run any wiring you need in first so you aren't' fishing later.

if you are putting cabinets make sure the wall is flat behind them you dont; want to have to make kluges because of warped or out of square items. you might be able to make up "story poles" to fit the cabinets. it's just a stick you put against a wall and use as a reference during cabinet layout etc but if things are not square they can show more than a tape measure or make comparisons easier. the story pole can make it harder to make mistakes when measuring as it marks out the distance to the wall more visually than just a number. pull ou tthe square, level etc and check what youmight be up against.. it's easier if you know that first.

a lot of cabinetmakers like to work in millimeters even if they aren't as used to metric , it is easier to mark things off accurately and to do division etc.. your preference of course. to be accurate you can easily mark with a knife by laying it against a metric tape and it is a bit more accurate than using a pencil.

look at your fridge, decide if it may be changed. stoves and dishwashers are often standard but fridges are all over the place, so if you box it in or put cabinets close to it above consider if you might be limiting yourself to choices later. a lot of nice custom kitchens box in the fridge, it can be like a big barrier in the room so think how it may block light etc.
you'll have to make some choices about if you want it to look really authentic to the age or to be a practical mix of old and new. an old kitchen might be great for you but perhaps it influences house value? I think there are lots who feel practicality in the kitchen is most important and some dont' mind making the kitchen a more modern space. no hard rules.

Since I'm re-doing the living room I stuck a loveseat and the TV in the kitchen. I kind of like that but it depends how you use the kitchen. I've seen big kitchens where a couch in the kitchen actually worked well if you use it as an entertainment space as well. in my case the living room is completely separate and with two of us it's kind of nice to be able to sit on the couch together, maybe while keeping an eye on whats cooking at the same time.. but do what works for you.

a lot of the new micro living compartment designs use stools. I hate stools I find they are uncomfortable for longer periods. some like islands with stools and things. I'd rather sit down myself.
If you have room for a nook you can consider that I think you need about 7 feet for one like you'd find in a diner. they have kind of a comfy feel and then you dont;l need to worry about pulling out chairs and them marking up the floor. you could make a little block and call that the nook and see if it fits on the "game board"

once you get close, have a closer look at how drawers pulled out and cabinets open or dishwasher door... to see if you can catch any oversights.

I think a neat gimmick is a sweep hole in the floor. it can be connected to a vacuum underneath and so when you sweep the floor you open the cover, that turns on the vac and you just sweep it down the hole.. if you have laundry a laundry shoot can be a neat feature too.

I don't know if you iron.. if you do you might want an ironing board in the kitchen or even the laundry or maybe just as an authentic feature. some houses even had sort of a half door to hang up laundry without going outside. - if you use a laundry line.

I've been noticing that in a lot of earlier kitchens they put vents in lower cabinet just below the sink, I guess it was a vent so it didn't get stinky? anyway some slots cut in there might be a cheap "feature"

some older houses had a cupboard vented outside for things like potatoes, so they stay cool but dont' want to live in the fridge. maybe some cool storage is still practical today.
In europe they often use smaller fridges , even under the counter. Here in NA we have huge ones. you might consider a small fridge as a workaround? maybe if you have a deep freeze that could be a fridge with freezer instead? I dont' think giant sized fridges are essential but they are nice to have..

look at your own habits, if you lke to drink coffee a lot think about the steps you do to make a pot of coffee and serve it. myself I am always in the fridge for milk for coffee, others have different habits. make it work for you. my work triangle might include the coffee pot. I want it near the fridge and sink to save steps.

[Manalto]

Some fine suggestions there, Phil. I probably should have supplied some room dimensions in my initial post.

Whatever I wind up doing, the floor will be real linoleum. I miss the feeling of bare feet on a freshly-waxed linoleum floor.

[Gothichome]

Manalto, you be amazed at how well our old homes work for us. After a while you will find no need to remuddle.

[Manalto]

Not sure what you mean about my "need to remuddle."

[JRC]

Not sure what you mean about my "need to remuddle."

I don't think Gothichome meant anything personally. Most people, even some old house lovers, will walk into an old kitchen like yours and assume that the whole thing needs to be gutted to the studs to start from scratch. When, in reality, some people often adapt easily to some quirky aspects of a space like that--that were assumed would be a huge problem--and might even come to appreciate them, over time.

[Gothichome]

Manalto, when your 1918 home was built a work triangle was twenty years into the future. As mentioned the kitchen set up was not unusual for the period your home. Even into the twenties the kitchen was rarely to be seen by guests, it was a purely functional work and storage space. At about the same time, having a dedicated house keeper was well on the wain, only the well to do still had them. The basic function and lay out of a kitchen did not change as fast as social norms, only now it was the home maker who took over the date to day kitchen duties.
My thoughts were intended to suggest that living with the home as it was built is not as hard as modern views of kitchen efficiency should dictate. You did mention you bought for the vintage quirkiness of an old home. I would leave every thing were it is and adapt.
JRC, thanks for jumping in, in my defence, There was no intent to disparage your thoughts Manalto. Maybe my biases are coming out in my posts.

[phil]

I'd start with drawing out the dimensions of the space on graph paper, one square to the inch or whatever fits. then you can make up a little piece of paper for the stove that might be 30 inches or whatever.. cut out a paper scrap that is proportional for each appliance, then slide them around. You may find you can keep the sink where it is for example but i think it will help you visualize the possibilities and make a good decision. You may choose to keep it as it is as original as possible to avoid unnecessary changes but it might help you see possibilities that you had not thought of.

I found once I did that it really helped me rule out what was possible and what just couldn't work for me. I think if you did that and then you could just snap pictures of it then get the people here that can visualize spaces better to help, it would be easier to communicate it.

There is a charm in keeping the layout with two rooms, maybe it is nice to be able to put the dirty dishes somewhere you aren't entertaining if you have a habit of having guests into the kitchen. Some make dinner and serve it in the dining room and keep guests in the living room or parlor but what you do may depend a lot on how big your house is. In mine there are really only two rooms, the kitchen or the living room and if I have a lot of guests they tend to break into two groups. If its a big house then you;d probably entertain in the kitchen less but if it's small like mine it just automatically becomes an entertaining area as well as cooking and serving area.

it might be appropriate to have an area for bread making with a heavy unfinished top to roll out dough, or a butcher block to chop things on if you do that. breadboards that pull out were common too but I don't know if most new kitchens have them or if they would date to the era of your house. I made up a sort of V shaped tray for mine in front of the sink so it can tip out and I can keep scrubby brushes and stuff in there, since that space is usually wasted anyway.

[Manalto]

Phil,
The graph-paper idea is a good one for many situations but given the position of the sink and the stove, in combination with the low windows (which I also don't want to "remuddle") limit my possibilities, as I understand them. There doesn't seem to be any room left! That's why I posted the question - to see if I was missing a possibility or a technology that I hadn't considered. For example, the obvious spot for the refrigerator is against the wall where the painting is, but a modern fridge is such a big hulking presence, it would inhibit flow from pantry to pantry (scullery) in that spot. A dorm-sized fridge tucked into the pantry is an option, but I'm an avid cook, so that would be inadequate and require spending an inordinate amount of time on the floor, selecting victuals. That niche-wall across from the sink in the pantry/scullery is a valuable piece of real estate. I have not entertained the idea of knocking down any walls, nor would I.

The "remuddling" impulse that I was accused of in an earlier post is exactly what I'm trying to avoid (although I suspect that each time I make pasta, carrying a big kettle of boiling water from one room to another to drain it is going to get old). I will keep the stove in the corner under the cabinets (these are 70s laminate they can go) because there is a flue which connects to an outside chimney. My stove will not be 30" (more like 48" - off the top of my head) nor will it be period correct. I came across a Bengal stove with a heating unit on the left-hand side that I plan to install. (I think they called them gas-on-gas) It's from the late 40s or early 50s. The house has no central heat, hence that decision. A period-correct stove would be lovely sometime in the future.

Regarding the "remuddle" comment, as a new contributor here, I came in with great enthusiasm and, I'm not ashamed to admit, a good deal of ignorance on this topic (I learned here that the sink's position probably was original, and not a later modification, which I had assumed was the case). I chose THD because it was recommended as a supportive and knowledgeable group. I was caught off-guard by the condescending remark, which, of course, has discouraged my participation. It's not that I'm so thin-skinned that I can't tolerate it; it's just that I don't find that type of exchange productive - for anyone. I participate in other, unrelated, forums where I have a little more experience and new members appear regularly. We see the same rookie mistakes repeated and assume the responsibility of gently and respectfully steering the newbie away from these, without making assumptions or criticizing.

James