Kitchen Configuration?

[Manalto]

I'm 1100 miles away at the moment, so the measurements I took when there are the ones I'm stuck with until I go back down in a couple of weeks.

The kitchen is tiny, 10'6" X 8'10" and so is the pantry alcove (across from the sink in the baking pantry), at 63" wide and 29" deep. (One option would be to put the refrigerator in here, but a standard-sized fridge would gobble up space and leave only ~ 34" for an anorexic Hoosier.) The kitchen windows are low; that's the best I've got. I'd like to avoid blocking them at all because it's a hot climate and it's the kitchen and that room sits in the shade of the big live oak, which means the ventilation from those windows would be cool. When I was there, I measured the wall between the pantries (the painting) in my efforts to imagine the sink in that room but didn't write the measurement down, dammit. 38" maybe? It's a small room.

This isn't the stove (mine has been taken apart for the move) but it looks like this:
Bengal Stove - similar by James McInnis, on Flickr

The heater unit is to the left (the rusty part in the photo) and the flue is for the stove only; someone built a nice chimney up the back of the house to accommodate it.

I'll use the dining room for its intended purpose. It will be a good social space.

The solution to the swinging door problem is simplicity itself (I'm embarrassed I didn't think of it sooner). When fully open, many swinging doors have a feature that allows them to lock into the open position, and this one is no exception. So, when you want the door out of the way, you can just swing it open into the dining room and leave it that way.

I do like the idea of a sink to the right of the stove for filling and dumping cooking water. It could also be a good utility sink for cleaning.

Thanks for offering to ponder the puzzle. Two heads, dontcha know...

[phil]

if it's empty I'd start with the ceilings, then the electrical , then the walls. the reason is because it is hard to work on the ceilings and walls with stuff in the room. I'm restoring my house room by room but I always start at the top and work my way down. if you want to paint the ceiling do it now, same with insulation and electrical, dont' try to run a modern kitchen on antique wiring. If you want you can use period repro switches and things.


If it hasn't been already done the wiring will be totally inadequate and need updating and you don't want cabinets and things in the way as you fish in new properly grounded wire. but before you wire you need to know where the appliances are. you need a separate breaker for the fridge and there are minimum codes for wiring around counters. basically nowadays you need lots of plugs. each outlet , not each box requires it's own breaker. this is because we have a lot of newer appliances than they did back in the day when a couple of breakers could power a whole kitchen and they could put multiple outlets on a single breaker but they didn't have so many modern toasters, coffee pots, microwaves, etc. I'm sure you've been in places where if you try to run the toaster and microwave at the same time you would blow the breaker. it's a lot easier to correct that now. also old breakers can stick. they are pretty reliable but they dont' last forever. if a breaker sticks it can cause the wiring in the walls to heat up. some houses had fuses. they are OK they won't stick but you need grounded wire these days. often old houses have had updates to the wiring and they might be done right or in some houses people will do things like stick modern grounded outlets without upgrading the wiring so it is actually grounded and bonded properly. in the old days they didn't even ground the boxes.

keeping the details and appliances and things is nice if they work for you. Nothing wrong with an older gas stove . If you want any sort of wood burning oven, check with your insurance , it will likely be higher. for some reason they dont' mind real chimneys but wood burning stoves and free standing wood burning heaters are harder to insure.

what I would consider is modern up to date appliances fridge , stove, microwave, dishwasher if you want one, garberator, and a fan that blows outside from above the stove. and not one of the stupid "vents that just blows through a filter and back out. I would keep all that in the smaller area and then try to keep the dining area where people see it more true to the date. You could still keep both rooms and the decor as fitting as possible for the era.

most old houses didn't have insulation and they just burned more wood or coal or whatever. today energy is more expensive and insulation is a really good idea. if you wish to open walls to add insulation it's a good time. once you get all moved in that will be more upsetting. so if it were me i'd get insulation in the outer walls and then build the kitchen.

Once you have your location well planned for your appliances and work areas then think of the lighting. If you need to route wires in do that before you get to trimming everything out. then think of the heating system. is it going to work with your new layout? maybe you dontl change the layout enough to get into that but think it through so it will be comfortable.

then think of you r flooring. In some houses there were big heat vents in the floor, you might ned to reloace stuff if it was at one time updated to forced air are the vent locations and the air returns going to work? its nice if you can do the flooring and then put your cabinetry overtop rather than it being a workaround while you are occupying all the space with other stuff.

paint and trim is the icing on the cake. Its usually best to start with the bones and get the mechanical stuff ready for another 100 years , then when you settle in you will have that behind you. the mechanical bits are not so exciting visually and they can be costly especially if you have to hire it out, but it's part of owning an older house.

look at the plumbing , is it adequate? do the drains and pipes block other stuff you want to do in the basement? most older houses had cast iron plumbing. its fine if it doesn't get all blocked up. but sometimes replacing it with new plumbing is nice and sometimes having issues with old plumbing which is buried is a real pain. my house has a heavy iron stack from the basement floor to the roof for the vent. on older houses that weren't built with plumbing that is often on the outside of the house. it's heavy so if I want to remove it I have to chop it to pieces and replace , then since I won't have hundreds of pounds of pipe to contend with I could move the plumbing in the basement into the joist space or outside. as it is now it needs to have it's weight on the basement floor , that supports it. modern plastic pipe is a bit noisier, you can insulate it. the good part is it is easy to cut out sections and fix that than to deal with pipe that is sealed with molten lead or screwed together and rusted tight or packed with sealant. in older times the basements were pretty utilitarian and they didn't care that the plumbing took space but in modern times people often want to be part of the living space even if it is just your workshop. One doesn't appreciate the plumbing until it plugs and then over the next week you realize how very important it is. the crud builds inside the pipes and you can be sure if it is going to plug it will be at Christmas or some other difficult time. Often you can avoid the drama of plugged drains or leaks with some planned maintenance and updates. add some cleanouts. Once that stuff works well you will forget about it. If you want access to inside the walls or if you want to re-plumb or relocate the sink then now is the time.
Check if your house has a pressure regulator. often old houses didn't have one and then through time the city increased pressure and if you dont; have one you could be running at 60 PSI or something.

once you have an overall vision of what you want then you can start to work out timelines and if you need contractors or if this is going to be all DYI then try to be practical abou tthe cost and timelines. it is easy to spend thousands on the kitchen alone so consider how it affects the resale value. I will often stop myself and think of how changes I make would affect the resale and I try not to open so many projects it becomes too overwhelming. If you were going to sell the house tomorrow then the new buyers would be looking at livability and some might like all old free standing appliances and cabinets like the hoosier... but if you talk to an agent about what the masses would like to see you might be surprised that it isn't all about just looking old. Its your investment and it is easy to get into the mind frame that everything needs to be authentic to the era. I wouldn't change what is unnecessary but I wouldn't care to live in a museum either. I think in modern day there needs to be some trade offs. of course you will decide these thing as you go.

[Lily left the valley]

{snipped}The kitchen is tiny, 10'6" X 8'10" and so is the pantry alcove (across from the sink in the baking pantry), at 63" wide and 29" deep. (One option would be to put the refrigerator in here, but a standard-sized fridge would gobble up space and leave only ~ 34" for an anorexic Hoosier.) The kitchen windows are low; that's the best I've got. I'd like to avoid blocking them at all because it's a hot climate and it's the kitchen and that room sits in the shade of the big live oak, which means the ventilation from those windows would be cool. When I was there, I measured the wall between the pantries (the painting) in my efforts to imagine the sink in that room but didn't write the measurement down, dammit. 38" maybe? It's a small room.

This isn't the stove (mine has been taken apart for the move) but it looks like this:
The heater unit is to the left (the rusty part in the photo) and the flue is for the stove only; someone built a nice chimney up the back of the house to accommodate it.

I'll use the dining room for its intended purpose. It will be a good social space.

The solution to the swinging door problem is simplicity itself (I'm embarrassed I didn't think of it sooner). When fully open, many swinging doors have a feature that allows them to lock into the open position, and this one is no exception. So, when you want the door out of the way, you can just swing it open into the dining room and leave it that way.

I do like the idea of a sink to the right of the stove for filling and dumping cooking water. It could also be a good utility sink for cleaning.

Thanks for offering to ponder the puzzle. Two heads, dontcha know...

*nods* I know indeed. Thanks for the additional info, and the photo! Great stove. I'll see what I can pencil around this week and scan and post it, likely over the weekend at some point.

[Lily left the valley]

I'm 1100 miles away at the moment, so the measurements I took when there are the ones I'm stuck with until I go back down in a couple of weeks.

Let me know when you get a chance to get more measurements of the space. I tried a few things with the numbers I have, but if my door and window measurements are off, it's useless. Sorry it took so long, but I had to dig through a few boxes to find my graph paper. I don't have my old portable drafting table anymore, so I couldn't even go that route.

Also, the "depth" of the storage pantry, is that from wall to wall (meaning behind the cabinets and shelves), or the passageway between the two? Also, storage cabinet and shelf depth? I wasn't sure of the how much was in the baking/scullery versus the storage portion compared to the kitchen. Sink cab doesn't matter too much, it's probably roughly what our cast farmhouse sink is.

One thing I do want to ask, is if the wall between the baking/scullery and the main kitchen is not structural, have you considered possibly punching through there to have the fridge doors on the kitchen side, and the body of the fridge on the baking/scullery side? I know how that sounds...but, at the same time, it would eliminate that traffic bump crossing. If there were cabinets on the other side of that wall, I wouldn't suggest such.

[Manalto]

I'll be there, for the first time after closing, by next Sunday, and can take measurements leisurely. The space across from the sink (in the photo below) is 63" wide and 29" deep. A average-width refrigerator (30") would leave 33" - which might be enough space in which to function, although it would probably feel like a city apartment.

Scullery WA by James McInnis, on Flickr

There's plenty of food storage in the other pantry, but this would be a logical place for glasses, dishes, and counter space. I don't see the benefit of removing the wall to accommodate the refrigerator; in fact, you'd then have to look at the back of it. Either way (in the pantry as-is, or with the wall taken down) choosing a right-or-left opening door would be a dilemma with the sink in one direction and the stove in the other.

[Lily left the valley]

I'll be there, for the first time after closing, by next Sunday, and can take measurements leisurely. The space across from the sink (in the photo below) is 63" wide and 29" deep. A average-width refrigerator (30") would leave 33" - which might be enough space in which to function, although it would probably feel like a city apartment.

Scullery WA by James McInnis, on Flickr

There's plenty of food storage in the other pantry, but this would be a logical place for glasses, dishes, and counter space. I don't see the benefit of removing the wall to accommodate the refrigerator; in fact, you'd then have to look at the back of it. Either way (in the pantry as-is, or with the wall taken down) choosing a right-or-left opening door would be a dilemma with the sink in one direction and the stove in the other.

Aye, I had thought of these things as well as the possibility that it might get in the way of the door flow from the dining. Still, worth asking.

[OurPhillyRow]

Just to toss in my two cents ...
Consider a counter-depth refrigerator. I have seen so many beautiful kitchens overtaken by a behemoth (standard sized) fridge sticking out into the space six inches in front of the adjacent base cabinets. This is especially true in smaller/tighter spaces where every inch matters.

[Manalto]

I agree, Devyn, and suspect the solution is going to be technological (counter-depth or some kind of built-in) rather than simply positioning the big, hulking appliance somewhere. An under-the-counter fridge (if such a thing exists) in this space would solve the problem, but I'd be spending a lot of time on the floor.

[Willa]

An under-the-counter fridge (if such a thing exists) in this space would solve the problem, but I'd be spending a lot of time on the floor.

There's LOADS of under the counter refrigerators. Look at restaurant supply places. There may also be under the counter freezers, too ? I remember looking for one when I had the nightmare apartment without working appliances, with the nightmare landlord. I wound up buying a small, ugly 7 cu ft fridge on CL, and I painted it to match the cabinets. Many of the undercounter restaurant fridges are fridges only - they don't have freezer compartments. My impression is that they are built better than the mini fridges that you can buy at big box stores.

There's a UK line of fridges that are cute, come in colors, but are pricy, with the unfortunate brandname SMEG. They have at least one counter depth style.

There was a hulking 20+ cu ft fridge here that ate up so much space and was just in the way. I replaced it with a 1950's Admiral fridge which has worked fine so far. It might be 10 - 12 cu ft which is fine for one person. The freezer is tiny which is the only drawback. When I was looking at vintage fridges, there is a range of depths. I think mine is 27" deep (including the coils and coil protector at back) which fit perfectly into a different corner. I seem to recall 1950's fridges that ranged from 25 - 30" depth, when I was looking.

$_27-1.JPG (12.11 KiB) Viewed 2031 times

[Manalto]

I'm 6'3" so an under-counter fridge would be a solution but it wouldn't be ideal. Recently replaced the refrigerator in this house , which was working perfectly fine, because it was a top-freezer type and the entire contents of the refrigerator were below my waist. I got a bottom-freezer type. I could live with something like your snazzy Admiral, however. A tiny freezer would not be a problem; I only need ice and a spot for the occasional pint of ice cream. I was told vintage refrigerators consume a massive amount of electricity, and then I heard they don't. Do you know which is true?