victorian chair

[Manalto]

A friend once said, "It matters more to you than it does to me." I've found that that phrase applies in a wide variety of situations, especially around opinionated people.

[phil]

A friend once said, "It matters more to you than it does to me." I've found that that phrase applies in a wide variety of situations, especially around opinionated people.

sometimes its a way to end a dispute before it begins like by saying lets agree to disagree.

also sometimes we think too deeply and tend to think other people care about stuff so much. for example if you painted your house you could be really internalizing what the neighbors think of the new scheme, but in reality they are barely noticing, let alone really caring about your color scheme.

in my case it meant yea, I can get that couch , she probably would just go with it if I thought it was important but since this isn't something I'm too concerned about and I know she'd rather have something we can cozy up together on. It becomes one of those give and take situations. thankfully she's very agreeable and helpful, kind and nice. we do seem to be able to share our ideas.. two years and no real arguments, I might be improving my track record here maybe all the catch and release was worth it..
I've been immersed in backflow prevention training this past week. I understand most of it but some of the procedures we will get tested on require remembering so many sequential steps without referring to notes. Im finding that the largest challenge. Its pretty similar to in the US but come of the codes and test sequences differ. her we put them inside the building but down where it doesn't freeze then you will see lots of them outside maybe near the property line. Yesterday I asked how about using a hot water tank for heating. I cant' give a straight answer on that for your area. in some jurisdictions houses need backflow preventers no matter what , here most residential houses dont have them except the code requires presenters on the hose bibs. Throw in any type of boiler and you need one. Your codes will be different. my guess is that if you had something like a hot water tank running potable water through your radiator and sharing that with other things might help. If you need a closed loop system then it might be higher risk. the question isn't so much if you need one but what type, and what the inspection regime will be , probably a yearly cost.

[phil]

Ive been getting into restoring this chair. the arm was broken off and the rounded handle part of the carving had broken off.

the arm had a previous repair done but they never exactly lined things up then it failed again over time so It wasn't so simple as gluing the pieces back together.

I got them to fit as best I could , then used epoxy in the joint. in the same glue up I also mixed some wood dust in my epoxy. I did not want wood dust in my joint so I used straight epoxy first, but then I was able to pack any voids with the wood dust epoxy mixture. a sizeable chunk was missing but in an area that will be covered in upholstery. I continued on and as it began to thicken I was able to pack my epoxy glue mix int to fill the remaining voids. It also had some wood pins and nails that were used previously so I put them back in. Im sure it will never break there again. I protected the original finish with tape so none of my epoxy will show. It would have been more original to use hyde glue in this repair but I don't want it breaking there for a third time and epoxy can bridge some gaps which I needed since it want' a perfect fit like it would be if it was a recent break and not a second repair to the same area.

the next step was similar the handle or ball shaped carving on the arm was broken off some splinters missing. I did similar and managed to get that part to line up best I could.

now I'm using some wood putty and things to try to even up any missing splinters on the parts that show but the frame should be ok now structurally.

I had a chunk of what I thought was a very old piece of shellac so I thought gee Ill try to use that since it looked like an amber colored sheet with some old british logo on it.. I think its from the 20's or 30's judging by the other bits I found int he same box.

so I tried to dissolve this stuff in alcohol but it didn't dissolve. I had it on my coffee table and got it wet by spilling my coffee. then I discovered it got sticky.

it wont dissolve in alcohol but it dissolves in water...

aaah!... it dawned on me, this isnt' shellac I think it is actually an original sample of old hyde glue that came in sheet form. to be added to a glue pot. Ill try to verify that just out of curiosity.

most of the finish on the chair isn't that bad so I dont want to strip it. I tried to test the finish on it by wiping it with alcohol. the alcohol didn't seem to dissolve into it really or make it come off but it seemed to be cleaning it so I have been trying to get into all the carving to clean it really well.

I still think it is a shellac finish and not lacquer.. I don't want to use lacquer if that isn't what it is and it is probably quite old . I believe it is well over 100 and could be a lot older? it seems more likely it is a shellac finish. If this was 30's reproduction furniture I'd use lacquer.

I watched some videos on french polishing. I figured maybe I can sort of french polish it but the carving is so heavy that it isn't going to be like the stuff I'm seeing on youtube where they do flat pieces. so maybe it will be more like padding shellac than french polishing technically. doing "airplane" landings and takeoffs wont fly in deep carved areas but I can keep wiping them so I guess if I am careful and slow I should get it shiny enough and even .

I had some amalgamator onhand so I tried adding a little of that to my shellac hoping to get just a little more bite. what I want to do is remove any of the whitish stuff and leave the underlying shellac alone as much as possible. Ive been holding off from using lacquer or lacquer thinners or acetone as I think those may react too strongly and result in loosing the old finish. the finish is aged and I think some moisture has caused the blush but that might not mean its shellac , I think it can happen to either to some degree. I'm hoping to melt in enough to remove any blush but not so much that it affects the finish it has too much. then I should be able to just build enough shellac, hopefully without using stains and things or anything too severe.

At the same time I'm trying to sort out the bits of filling I need to do because I know it will take time to get the finish to look right over repaired areas. I had some solid lacquer stick and started melting that into some of the voids. It can be used for repairs but I decided that lacquer stick is just to brittle so I chipped it all back off. I'll try using wood putty or my epoxy mix for where it is a substantial amount where it could chip out, then filler for the top. the epoxy shopuln't meet the surface, it might not take the finish the way I want but the epoxy and wood is really tough so it wont chip out too easily.

once I get the frame to look presentable then I will try my hand at reupholstering.
most of the videos I have seen show how to restore the springs and stuffing pretty well . they seem to like using the staple guns and I think this piece is old enough I'd really rather use the original type of tacks if I can.

If I really cant' handle the upholstery I can take it across my alley as there is a guy there who recovers furniture. I dont think he'll want to do it without a staple gun or see the value in using the old horsehair and I think maybe it is just the sort of thing where if you want it right you have to do it yourself.. but he probably has a lot more experience than I do with upholstery. I hope I can consult with him when I get to that stage . Ive done him some favors and I know he will help if I ask but I am a bit concerned that he probably is so used to using the new techniques using tacks and burlap and horsehair may be as foreign to him as it is to me.

ive seen quite a few pictures of old furniture, I know this piece is old but I stal cant' date it.. Im hoping that eventually someone will know the age or maybe I can refer to some books for reference. I think the shape of the legs and the wood used is quite extraordinary. I guess I liked it enough to buy it and could see the potential it had but I'm still unsure of what decade it might be from. whoever made it put some pride into it.

Phil

[Gothichome]

Phil, I have been looking closely at your chair, I think it may be early Victorian, and of higher quality. I noticed the carvings on either side match but they are not exact mirror images, this indicates to me that these were hand carved. You will noice that one carving sits lower on the leg than the other, the swirling and beading, although of the same pattern, is different. I suspect maybe two different hands at work, it was not unusual for shops of that time to have several apprentices working the same design many times over, the joiner would just grab a left and right off the shelf for assembly.

[phil]

What decade would early Victorian be?
I'm quite sure it is hand carved and the wear , materials etc reflect that.
I really like the proportions , especially the way the leg flows up to the arms. I'm thinking it is made in England but someone that knows furniture styles better than I do might be able to gather a lot more about it than I can. I think it was made by a true craftsman that had hand skills, I dont see any signs of machine marks.
My dad served an apprenticeship as a joiner( cabinetmaker) here in Vancouver he worked for an old Englishman that did reproduction English antiques in the early 50's. Apprenticeships and trade secrets were approached a lot different then than now.
he later became a carpenter as that paid better but He had a lot of love and many stories from the old days that he spent learning the trade.

i think that at the time it was made the design would have been unique to a certain shop and I dont know if the designs were patented or if it was just considered in bad form to copy others artwork. I would think that means that the designs are not protected now and could be copied legally.

the parts could all be reproduced by CNC now. a modern 5 axis CNC router could chug that stuff out. I think that's sort of what the other chair in the thread was. a copy made int he 70's with primitive CNC technology, but the original pattern might be a lot older.
it is very nice wood walnut? it carves easily and has nice tight grain. I remember the auctioneer who was a real expert said that he could tell it was an actual antique ( over 100) by the style and the type of wood. He noted that back then they still had wood like this.
we have a stool with queen Anne legs and they still teach modern joiners to do that, they all make one leg. so some of the traditional skill is still being passed on.

we also still have a coffee table where dad roughed out the legs and rails probably when he was about 15 or so .. Maybe I should finish it. He had used a cobalt blue mirror for the top. he was very disappointed that when his parents died he wasn't able to inherit the table.( greed among siblings) the cobalt blue mirror is rare and expensive now. similar mirror was used on some early radios ( Sparton bluebird, Sparton sled) these are very collectable. I have some planks that were nice mahogany and would be very suitable for a top. Its old mahogany and that stuff is now banned I think. the plank I have is about 16 inches wide and about 15 feet long or so , I guess it's a rare plank now and suited to some fine woodwork project. I almost hate to cut into it. I think its called gaboon mahogany and dark. from the phillipenes maybe. the lighter mahogany you commonly see is often from india and not so sought after. The good stuff has a lot of beautiful ribbon.

he carried the stool home on the streetcar. a man asked where he got it, he said he made it. The guy said "you didn't make that !", not believing him because of his age. He did make it so that was a great compliment. that would have been about 1945.

[Gothichome]

If your pressing for a date Phill I would suggest ten years either side of 1860. The style is still revival but not Rocco ‘ish and before the Aesthetic designs really took hold. If it was a 1920’s revival piece I think the carving would be more uniform. And I can see this as English. The tale will be told in the construction of the carcass.

[phil]

I can take more pics as I go. I found the other arm was also cracked and misaligned a bit but had been "fixed" like that long ago. I tried to loosen it up but it started to break up so I decided it was less damaging to just use epoxy and fill the cracks and replace what wood was missing. at least it's strong, Id avoid epoxy if it weren't for the misfit of pieces. I know hoof glue would be more authentic and you can take that apart but if anyone else looks at it they could see why it was used and itll be covered up anyway.

I glued the knob carving back on and Im just filling he gaps and trying to blend in the repair. I turned it upside down to do some of it. looks like the former owner put extra straps to hold the springs overtop the old ones, but they sagged as well by now. so I'm trying to decide if its best to tackle the seat and upholstery or the springs. of course once the springs are "reloaded" they will push up on the seat more than they do now.

we have some upholstery we thought would be appropriate but it seems a bit stiff and I might need fabric that is able to do compound bends better. I'll finish up the wood restoration first so I dont get that on the new cloth. I might plug up some of the old holes with filler as I take the stuffing off but I don't want to take more apart at once than I need to. I can talk to an upholsterer before I go too far but best if I get the wood parts fixed up first. It might be worth finding upholstery that is really suitable rather than just using what's on hand. I think there is something called gimping to cover the tacks and I might need some to match the upholstery to hide the nails.
I might be able to cover it with cloth first then put the upholstery over it as a last step so maybe I don't need it until I reach that point.

some of the carving was missing so I recreated a bit of it with the epoxy and wood dust. It actually matches pretty well and I can use some filler and pigments to help blend it all together. i had to wait until it became a but like putty to form it to shape without it running away. There is a stage where it goes like chewing gum so I can coax it into the shape I wan then once its past the runny stage. then it hardens up like wood. since there is wood dust in it when it hardens it looks like wood and that might help other stuff stick to it since it can attach to the fibers.

I found some thick soft clear plastic from a package and used that , I found I can put that over the epoxy and then smooth it into shape then pull it off. that leaves the surface perfect and shiny and smooth. ( if I do it when the epoxy wood mix is in a plastic state.)

things like carvings could be replicated with molds using this stuff. They did back similar back in the 30's quite often and what they would do is cast the carved parts then glue them onto other wood parts leaving the impression of it being hand carved. It's called repwood and I have stripped pieces where it was hard to tell until I really got them stripped to realize it was wood dust and glue that looked like wood that they had used to create intricate carved looking parts. the stuff seems resistant to solvents and stripper, its pretty stable.
a good example of this is with the crosley widget radio here : Im thinking of trying to use epoxy and wood chips to create stuff that is similar by copying it using molds.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/crosley_wigit.html

here's another , the Emerson mickey mouse radio.
https://www.decophobia.com/emerson-mode ... d-version/

creating whole cabinets would leave me needing the chassis for them but maybe I could use a common chassis and make my own cabinets. for example this radio is commonly found for about 50 bucks or less. https://www.retroradioshop.com/products ... ooth-input

things like the mickey mouse radio might still have patent rights, Mickey is a Disney trademark I think , but but some of these companies went under during the depression so maybe some of those designs have fallen out of any sort of patent infringement situation. I saw one that was a one off that was made from a similar Disney related radio.

some years ago I bought a knob collection from another collector. It must be several thousand knobs and most are so specific to certain radios. such a selection is rare as it would require puling off knobs from thousands of radios to get that many. I might be able to recreate some of the wood ones from molds so then I would be able to retain the selection and cast them to order. It would be possible to do a photo catalog of the ones I own but there are so many its a significant undertaking just to take all the pics and catalog them. the problem I had with selling them is that it takes a ot of communication and discussion , everyone wants sets of wooden ones and while there are thousands of samples there are only so many complete sets of wooden ones. what happens is it takes like 10 emails for a sale then shipping them, then the collectors only want to pay so much. there is so much individual hand holding that any profits become difficult. some have odd sized shafts, some need setscrews, lots have specific individual characteristics.

a lot of the plastic and Bakelite ones are very individualistic and so for some radios the wrong set of knobs just looks wrong.. I can repro the Bakelite ones by using epoxy and pigments without wood chips. If I use the right molding materials even wood grain can be picked up and reproduced so I have seem some repros that are quite convincing done this way. often radios are only missing one knob and in that case it is possible to use the ones it has to make molds. Its all possible but it is just difficult enough that it really only makes sense if someone is putting their heart into a particular restoration or for radios with some value. I've helped a few times to make them but these things turn into being pretty time consuming so it just becomes more about the fun and love of restoration than dollars and sense. - more often than not, any sort of restoration is not profitable, anything I do anyway


Thanks for your opinion on the date. I'll try to get some pics of the frame structure and underneath.
I haven't found any numbers or labels so far.

[Gothichome]

Phill, coils springs were patented in Briton in the 1830’s but were not widely used until the mid 1840’s in upholstery. In Britain, America, and for that matter every one else were using coil springs of some sort in their chairs. So we know your chair is no earlier than 1840

[phil]

Phill, coils springs were patented in Briton in the 1830’s but were not widely used until the mid 1840’s in upholstery. In Britain, America, and for that matter every one else were using coil springs of some sort in their chairs. So we know your chair is no earlier than 1840

Thanks for that. Last night I was watching a good video where he was doing one from about 1850 and noted that he thought the springs had been added so perhaps that's a possibility but it certainly looks pretty original.

most of the pros still seem to use air staplers and not tacks. I thought tacks would be more original but the staples are faster and there is a theory that they go into old wood easier. I guess there are different schools of thought on that. he said that some upholstery like silk is difficult to lay down without it puckering up around the edges. I guess the staples grab more evenly. the staples are harder to remove.

on some they are full of hay or shreds of wood with some horsehair over it. If I can Ill keep as much as I can but I think I should probably change the webbing on both sides of the springs so that means taking the seat apart. the stuffing seems pretty intact on the seat so Im hoping to keep it if I can but it has to be taken apart to get to the webbing under the seat and over the springs.
im a bit caught with the idea of spending lots on the cloth because our cats do like to get their claws in there sometimes.
there is a tool to stretch the webbing , I think I can make one for the job. I've got a tack hammer, it has a magnetic head so I guess they would stick the tack to the hammer head then start it on their first hit, maybe with a wooden mallet. Ive yet to see anyone do it like that. They used to put the tacks in their mouth to dispense them and I guess got quite quick at it. I have a bunch of little boxes of assorted antique tacks but I dont think ill be dispensing them that way

I'll learn more before I delve in too much. Ive got a few others that need upholstery, 6 dining chairs that are about as old, they are heavily carved with porcelain wheels on the back legs. one armchainr from about the 30's where the springs want to come through and a pair of oak parlor chairs that have horsehair stuffing and leather seats that remove for upholstery. I've got new leather hides for the covers on those.

my kitchen has fir floors so I'm a bit concerned that if I use these chairs then they might leave dents and marks on the floor. evidently the existance of the porcelain wheels is an early way so they are 1800's as well.

This is all very green technology. It was quite a feat to be able to make the wood parts and cover the chairs without a lot of hard to get materials, really just the tacks, springs and upholstery, the rest could be sourced locally. no plastic garbage. they could be returned to the soil basically. we could probably take a lesson from that.

funny question but what part of the horse do they get this curly hair from ? can I just vist a horse barn and ask for it or would I order special material?

it loooks like the wood shavings could be made by planing a narrow strip of wood with the grain , that would leave long strips about 1/8th or so wide that can be curled up and stuffed in. I think it perhaps outlasts hay which they also used.

I found one video where the guy just used the wood fiber and horsehair and he showed his techniques of caressing the stuff with a stick to get it distributed and locked into itself evenly. he called it mission style, maybe that was the chair.

there are a lot of good videos with many novice videos mixed in, I even saw Martha Stewart in there, maybe she learned it in jail ; -)

Ive also got a set of english kitchen chairs. two have arms two not. they have rush covers. they used to weave European bulrushes to make the seats. we have lots of bulrushes at our summer place but it seems even more tricky and I m not sure if they are the right sort. the problem is that in order to take them apart and clean all the glue joints the covers need to be redone as they cant' be removed and put back. there is a new material that looks sort of like twisted cardboard. I have one roll of it and sometimes this is used to replace the rush covers. easier to do that way.

I guess as long as its fun its worth doing, some of this just takes a huge amount of patience.

[phil]

I've been watching lots of videos , there is some great stuff on upholstering with the old methods. I'm looking for upholstery and emailed a place in Germany that still makes it. the price of shipping alone is 200 bucks Canadian so I'm thinking it's probably out of my range but they did say they could send samples. I will check around locally maybe someone here is interested in being one of their distributors. this chair requires some nice upholstery but there is a lot of work before I'll need that. I have some cloth but Im questioning if it is able to take the compound curves well enough. I think I need something with some give to take the compound curves without lots of pleats.

I'm slowly taking it apart. removing all the nails. It was recovered before but I think the stuffing and materials are all original. It did not have any staples, modern upholsterers always seem to use the air powered staple guns. Its easier and holds the fabric more evenly. I'm wondering if I can use tacks instead to keep that original or maybe it's to to use them.

im finding some guidance on tying the springs, replacing the webbing, I can wash the horsehair and use it again. Ill replace the cotton. some old chairs have hay or wood shavings but this one was done in horsehair. there is a lot of technique to fluffing and working the materials, sewing the contents to create Just the right form. I might leave the back alone and just recover it. I better focus on the seat first I guess.
There is so much technique, I'm not even good at sewing but some of the videos are so descriptive it helps. I'm just going in baby steps so I could see this project taking a long time. Ill plan to post some updates as I go.
I solidified the arm and the frame and did some basic structural repairs. I tried rejuvinating the original finish and it seemed to be working. my aim is to just remove the whitish blush in the finish and not try to strip it or anything severe. I tried different concoctions ended up mixing shellac flakes, alcohol, some almalgamator and a bit of laquer thinners. It seems to work If I dont get too aggressive and sort of try to melt into the finish without disturbing it too much or washing off the finish. I'll try to retain the patina and not try to make it look all new. there might be a point where I need to get someone to lean over my shoulder or maybe I can take a night school course but I think I can manage to do the webbing tie up the springs and prepare to stuff and fill it. then the real techniques of shaping it are pretty involved and maybe Id do better with a bit of help. If it gave it to an upholsterer I'm sure it would be really expensive but I might be able to just buy some advice when I get to the more fussy parts.
I'll need some cotton and burlap some heavy thread, giant needles, darning needles, I have some webbing. I need to decide if I use staples or tacks. I think Ill use tacks for the webbing. I might resort to the staples for some of the upholstery because it might actually work better and hold more evenly. I have a vintage magnetic tack hammer. Ill need a webbing stretcher but I can make that myself.