More fixer upper furniture!

Furniture, furnishings and other items of antique interest
phil
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Re: More fixer upper furniture!

Post by phil »

Kashka-Kat wrote:OK I got out my long bar clamps - plus assorted other types - just going to put on the new hide glue whereever I can, clamp however I can.... and hope it all comes together reasonably square! I must say, one thing about hide glue I like is the idea that if I goof it up, I can soften it with water, disassemble and start over. Whoever thought that could be a virtue!


using hide glue is preferable if it is an true antique because it can still be repaired. Once you use epoxy you are done.. but i think there are cases where you just want to fix the thing and have it not come apart. maybe the decision comes down to whether it's a 50's chair that you want to use or a valuable heirloom that is very old and where originality may be more important.

One thing I would say with the epoxy , if you use it take precautions not to get it on exposed parts that are to be refinished, you can use masking tape sometimes to make sure it doesn't bleed onto the areas that show. also if you have big gaps to fill , if you can put a thin stick in the gap a lot of time that's better and stronger than filling big gaps with glue. - usually not that hard to cut some thin sticks of the same type of wood for this.

it depends on what you are repairing too, for example if someone stood on the piece and broke a leg in half, You might be less concerned with ever being able to re-break and reset the leg. in that case it isnt' repairing your repair you want it is a good strong joint that isn't going to break again so the epoxy might be a better choice.

if it were a beautiful and valuable old hand carved table then I'd be less enthusiastic about breaking out the epoxy and gluing the legs to the top for example.

often the corner blocks were done with hide glue and were "rub joints" they coated the glue blocks with glue and gave them a little wiggle as they put them in and they weren't always glued up with clamps, to speed production. this was common practice especially with mass production 1930's style furniture. So it isn't too uncommon to spot ones that have let go and may still be attached to just one side and not doing anything for strength, and they often left the factory just like that. Usually just a sharp tap with a small hammer will knock them free and you can refit and re-glue them up properly.

Kashka-Kat
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Re: More fixer upper furniture!

Post by Kashka-Kat »

FWIW - if anyone is interested - I did not use any glue on legs/corner blocks or side rails. At the last minute I remembered long ago woodworking class and how we were told to NOT put any glue on these parts as tightening hanger bolt should pull everything straight and square, and that glue globbed in the joints would prevent this from happening. So glad I didnt, because a week later, Im still futzing around getting everything straightened out.... just now realized that I need to remove and reattach the bottom shelf - I realized that because of 100 yrs of wood shrinkage and how the shelf was attached to the legs, it pulling on the legs so they are unable to be straight.

I really should have disassembled the whole thing from the beginning - would have been a lot easier to get everything stripped, straightened out, reglued, etc. Oh well - live and learn.

QUESTION: is oak going to shrink anymore after 100 yrs? Or should I reattach table top and bottom shelf with attachments that allow movement? I think this table got so messed up in the first place because the top and shelf were just screwed on with screws. Is there an easy way to cut slots on a table that's already put together - would a biscuit joiner do the right size slots?

phil
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Re: More fixer upper furniture!

Post by phil »

wood always moves but it also shrinks across the grain so it may not return to full size but it will move as the humidity changes. the movements are slight bit you need to allow for them even still.

I just measured a biscuit and it's 4mm. You might find others but that must be a common width and the blade has to match the width of the biscuits.

can you use dowels? that might be easier to do without a biscuit joiner but I cant' really see what you are attaching.

something like this might help position the holes, there are others that go in the hole. You could probably put a bolt with the head cut off in your drill and file it to a point or something like that rather than go spending.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware/pa ... 42319&ap=1

or
if you have a router already just use that with a guide block to keep your cut straight and help position it. a router is a more versatile tol , biscuit joiners are ok if you do a lot of cabinetmaking with sheet goods but not a lot of other stuff around the house. you could use a little 1/8th spiral bit or something like that.

or go the old manual way and clamp a block to guide your 1/8 th inch wide chisel and just use a chisel and a little hammer and then you can cut your own biscuits. make the biscuit fit your groove after its cut.

Kashka-Kat
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Re: More fixer upper furniture!

Post by Kashka-Kat »

Oh sorry, Phil, my question wasnt very clear - although your info on biscuit joinery & alternative methods was of interest. I dont have a biscuit joiner at the moment, but have thought of getting one.

In this case, I wouldnt be using the biscuit jointer for a biscuit. I was thinking of using it to cut a slot in the table apron (side rails) so that I could attach the tabletop with Z type tabletop fasteners like this: http://www.rockler.com/table-top-fasteners

Now Im thinking it probably wont work because the slot for the Z fasteners has to be only 3/32 inch wide. How wide are the slots for biscuits, arent those much wider?

Not sure how else I can cut the slot since the table is already assembled. I guess thats another reason I should have completely disassembled it - could have cut the slot into the pieces with a circular saw. Arghhhhh!

phil
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Re: More fixer upper furniture!

Post by phil »

no a biscuit joiner isn't suitable for that. they aren't for making slots really.. they cut a shape into two edges to be joined but not in that manor. I have one , I use it occasionally but I got it so cheap I couldn't refuse. some Utube videos will show how to use one but I really don't think it is a suitable investment for you. If you invest in tools buy ones that you will use more.

I don't see anything wrong with using the clips you have but I'd just cut them by drilling about 6 holes in a row.. clamp a couple strips of metal to prevent your bit from wandering. use a teeny drill bit. Then use a little knife to connect the six holes together to form a slot for the tab.

sometimes legs and rails are joined with bolts. Old school furniture makers take pride in NOT using fasteners which are unnecessary and in most cases nails are a no no.. that said you dont' see it so you could simply use some L brackets and screws if that made it go easier. you can pick those up at a hardware store easily. the glue blocks are a more traditional way, albeit they can come loose and they really dont' help when the top changes size, depending on the size of the top the movement could be pretty minimal.

another way to do it is to drill holes right through the rails, You can drill a small hole through the rail and just slightly into the top first to locate it. I'd clamp the top to the rails to prevent movement and start by doing all your holes. drill through the rail and only about 1/4" into the top. Use a tiny bit and dont' go through!


then follow that with a hole the size of the screw with the rail removed, so that the screw can turn freely in the rail. then drill a hole the size of the screw head , that might be part way through the rail. by being careful with the the depth of this hole you will be adjusting how much the screw protrudes into the top. n( or how deep into the wood the screw head goes.

When you tighten the screws they will then pull the top down , if you don't go crazy and strip them. If you strip them then remove the top again and plug them with toothpicks and glue and start again. careful you dont drive your screws right through the top.

with this method you don't need the L brackets.

if it is a small table I wouldn't be too concerned with the shrinkage of the top, it's not moving much. If it was a great big table you'd have more movement. I wouldn't permanently attach the top and legs in case you ever want to work on it more.

I'd take the value of the piece into account, If it is a rare and valuable antique , try not to make modifications if they aren't necessary. If you couldn't sell it for over 50 bucks than do what works..

Kashka-Kat
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Re: More fixer upper furniture!

Post by Kashka-Kat »

Soooo frustrated. Im this close to making fire wood out of it. Not really, but its looking more like a 50 dollar piece vs a 350 dollar one which is a disappointment.

Is there a chronology or method to putting together a table? Does one attach legs to apron first, and then the top? Or should I attach top to apron and then the legs? Or both somehow together? Do I need to be futzing with a level and a square to make sure eveerything is straight and square or just assume that tightening hanger bolt will pull everything together properly?

I assumed the latter. I attached legs snugly one by one by tightening the hanger bolt (after cleaning bolt and buying new screws/washers). When I got out level I found that while the top and the bottom shelve were pretty level, the legs were all at a slant, off by about 1/2 inch- three of them slanting in one direction with only one being straight up and down. Arghhh!

Is there something Im missing re assembly? Or could it be the wood is just wonky from sitting in someone's basement for a gazillion years and falling apart and that no amount of futzing would make it good?

Re attaching the Z clips, I bought 1 x2 oak pieces, will cut groove in those and attach to side rails.

phil
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Re: More fixer upper furniture!

Post by phil »

Kashka-Kat wrote:Soooo frustrated. Im this close to making fire wood out of it. Not really, but its looking more like a 50 dollar piece vs a 350 dollar one which is a disappointment.

Is there a chronology or method to putting together a table? Does one attach legs to apron first, and then the top? Or should I attach top to apron and then the legs? Or both somehow together? Do I need to be futzing with a level and a square to make sure eveerything is straight and square or just assume that tightening hanger bolt will pull everything together properly?

I assumed the latter. I attached legs snugly one by one by tightening the hanger bolt (after cleaning bolt and buying new screws/washers). When I got out level I found that while the top and the bottom shelve were pretty level, the legs were all at a slant, off by about 1/2 inch- three of them slanting in one direction with only one being straight up and down. Arghhh!

Is there something Im missing re assembly? Or could it be the wood is just wonky from sitting in someone's basement for a gazillion years and falling apart and that no amount of futzing would make it good?

Re attaching the Z clips, I bought 1 x2 oak pieces, will cut groove in those and attach to side rails.



I wouldnt' worry about attaching the top until the legs and rails are square. If they are off kilter you need to know why. perhaps a thin shim can help to square them up or something? O course it is important to see if you can get parts to clamp up squarely before you do a glueup and it might be easier to glue them up individually. You might find you need to cut blocks of wood or plywood to help the clamps pull in the directions you need. You might run out of suitable clamps if you try to do too much all at once. often taking corner to corner measurements helps you decide if it's clamps up squarely but always do a dry clamp up and make sure that works before you get glue all over parts that aren't fitting properly. sometimes for odd shapes like table legs you may be able to trace the outline onto a piece of plywood and cut the line with a jigsaw then use the piece of plywood as a temporary fixture to aid in making the clamps pull in the directions you need.

phil
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Re: More fixer upper furniture!

Post by phil »

I have a little table here where instead of attaching te top securely, they added hinges, and then put a bottom on the siderails. they did such a nice job you cant' really tell and it is handy to be able to just lift the top and put things in there.

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awomanwithahammer
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Re: More fixer upper furniture!

Post by awomanwithahammer »

phil wrote:I have a little table here where instead of attaching te top securely, they added hinges, and then put a bottom on the siderails. they did such a nice job you cant' really tell and it is handy to be able to just lift the top and put things in there.

Hmmm...that's a great idea. A little hidey-hole. I've got a sewing table I could probably convert that way.
Bonnie

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