When the Newely Repaired Roof (or Chimney) Leaks Part 2

[A.Fox]

Has anyone else spent as much time chasing water problems in their old house?

When we bought the house, the garage roof leaked, the back hall roof leaked, the foyer had a big stain running down the wallpaper and the sun room had a blister in the plaster. At the home inspection these last two locations read as dry, but we kept our eye on them. We got the flat roofs over the garage and back wing done right away, and over the next few months kept our eye on the other spots. The sunroom blister continued to grow, in one heavy story water dripped in the foyer, we noticed some other potential water damage in a bedroom, and then the master bedroom chimney breast and nearby ceiling started to bubble and bulge. During one rainstorm I opened the attic hatch and water started dripping through the hatch. We knew something had to be done.

Last spring we had one third of our clay tile roof removed. New underlayment put down and new copper flashing in adjacent locations before laying the tile back down and replacing any broken tiles. I had a previous post in another area where 6 months later we still had a serious leak. The roofers came back out and expanded their repair area and re flashed a cast iron vent stack penetration, and that seems to have solved the problem there.

Now it looks like the master bedroom chimney breast is getting moisture again, and I'm not sure whether I should be considering this an issue of the roof, the chimney masonry, the chimney cap, or the chimney flues. Yesterday morning there was a definite bubble in the new wallpaper and it was damp. It is still damp, but less so this morning. The plaster still feels like it is solid behind for now. As I feel around the side of the chimney breast I could also feel a few subtle wrinkles in the wallpaper that may be due to previous water intrusion that we did not notice.

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That entire side of the hipped roof received new underlayment as part of the roofing, and the chimney was fully reflashed at the same time. In fall 2018 we had the chimney fully tuckpointed above the roof, and it looks like the two joints in the concrete cap were re-caulked, but no other brickwork was done, or work to the cap or to the flues. The mason that we had on the job though the cap looked to be in good condition and didn't see any reason to need to do more work at that time. You will see in the photo that the work even maintained the slight bulge in the chimney that existed prior to the work. We haven't had anyone look at the flues, but last winter tried to have a fire in the living room and it started making the house a little smokey so it has been on our list to get a chimney sweep out.

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From everyone's experience, when a house had chimney pots such as this, and was built in the mid 1920s, is the clay tile flue just open inside the pots? What happens then to the rain that enters the flue? Would it be worthwhile to had caps to the pots?

As far as weather we have had very little rain lately. A week ago we had an inch or so of snow that melted soon after, this Friday we also had a couple inches of snow that mostly turned to slush Saturday morning. Then our temperature dropped 30 degrees over Saturday night. We had a lot of ice build up on the inside of our windows to contend with Sunday morning when we also found the water damage.

Any thoughts on how to approach this? Should I call in the roofers from 2 hours away to inspect under warranty first, or get someone to inspect the chimney and flues, or start both? Are there any causes I'm not considering?

[1918ColonialRevival]

Since the roof is still under warranty, it wouldn't hurt to have them come back out and look at it. It sounds like there may be one very small area of flashing that is slightly raised or a solder joint that has a very small gap in it. Snow is always a test of roof flashing.

Also, I wouldn't use the fireplace again until you've had the flues cleaned and inspected. Nobody knows how long it's been since they were last done and you could have a good amount of creosote buildup in there along with leaves, bird nests, and God knows what else. The chimney sweep can send a camera down the flue after it is cleaned to assess the internal health of the chimney. If the chimney needs work, I'd have it done by someone who specializes in chimneys versus a standard mason. The chimney sweep should be able to refer someone.

Moisture buildup on the inside of window sash is an indicator that the glazing is failing. That might be a project to start this year during the warmer weather.

[GinaC]

By chance was there extreme weather before you noticed the marks around the chimney? Or is this getting wet every time it rains?

I had my chimney rebuilt and a new cap with new flashing put on, an ugly steel one that the guy painted flat black for me so at least it's not a beacon. Anyway, we had a thunderstorm afterwards with some extremely high winds, and I noticed several spots in the ceiling. I called the chimney sweep back and he said "everyone's chimney leaks with a storm like that". Well, I'm not sure I believe that, but it hasn't happened again. He said that he'd come take a look at the flashing again if it did.

[Gothichome]

AFox, I notice the location of your dampness matches the highest point were the chimney cuts through the roof. Any chance you are getting pooling against the chimney, the moisture creeping in. Is there a cricket on the back side of the chimney stack, maybe there should be.

[A.Fox]

There is a cricket, it has about the same slope as the roof.

Here are some pictures from after the masonry work, but before the roof work. All of the flashing in these photos was replaced. It is now turns up higher against the chimney, and is stepped and cut into the mortar joints and the tile was cut back to avoid debris build up.

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Looking at these photos, the tooling of the new mortar is a lot rougher than I would have expected, but the photos aren’t very high quality and they are scans of a print. But we weren’t all that impressed with our masons and some of the things that happened on the job. Overall quality was good, but not a great. So far it seems like people are thinking it’s more likely to be the roof than the chimney? I suppose the clues would have to be pretty deteriorated for moisture to be transferring between the flue, the air space and the masonry to manifest in the plaster of the chimney breast.

Gina, this is the first time we noticed the wetness. It’s kind of buried in my photo notes, but the wallpaper previously started peeling on the edge and our painter noticed the plaster felt damp when he went to make the repair. No really extreme weather lately, though we had a heavy rain maybe 2 weeks ago and some really high winds a week ago that took out an 75 year old maple in the front yard.

[A.Fox]

1918, I wasn't aware that failing glazing could contribute to moisture buildup. It usually happens when we have major temperature drops, like on Saturday when we dropped from the high 30s to near zero overnight, and it's worst when we have our shades closed, but each window typically get a 1" line of moisture along the bottom of each sash when that happens. But the sunroom windows typically frost regardless of whether the shades are closed (by sunroom I mean a room where the walls are mostly windows; it's contiguous with and conditioned like the rest of the house.

I mentioned this in case the temperature shift and moisture buildup may tell anything about the chimney probelm, but the windows definitely need work too. This is one of our worst windows:

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The glazing is completely gone on two sides of the upper sash and barely hanging in there on the others. Aside from our basement windows the others are more intact but definitely need to glazing completely redone. Our hope was to get some of these done before winter last year, but only managed to get one partially repaired.

[phil]

I can't tell where it is leaking but it doesnt' take science to know that any water going down those "pots" has to go somewhere.

I was surprised when I cleaned mine that a lot of soot was up behind the smoke shelf. My fireplace has basically a 2 inch crack near the front top of the firebox. the top of the firebox slopes back. the topside of that is a large area that colllects soot that has fallen. If this area gets full it interferes with the design and makes it not draft properly.

I made a little tool from some 2x4" steel plate with a bendy handle and raked lots out then stuck my shop vac in there. I got lots out. If you did that and the creosote was all wet that might say something.

if you clean out the firebo, wear some safety glasses and get in there with a lamp and a mirror on a stick you may be able to see more and get an idea how thick it is. If it's 1/8th thick that isnt' an issue but if it is caking on like 1/4 " thick it needs cleaning. on mine I can see down from the roof, with yours , well maybe that cap comes off somehow otherwise how would you get a brush down? , perhaps from inside going up. they have fiberglass poles that screw together and then you can put scrapers and brushes on them.

the flashing on the sides of your chimney doesnt' seem to be done correctly but some may be covered from view. . It is normal to do step flashing, these are L shaped pieces about 8 inches long or so. they should fit into the grout of the chimney and then extend in the L shape, so that if water gets on top of the flashing it directs the water on top of the roofing. often that looks a bit ugly so as a second step they install a counterflashing that is longer and hides it. the counterflashing is installed like the way yours is. Perhaps there is no stepflashing under there?

I suggest you search on youtube for installing chimney counterflashing. you can cut the grout with a grinder, then insert the stepflashing and roll up a chunk of lead and hammer it into the crack you cut to retain the stepflashing. even if you aren't doing it yourself a video will show better than i can describe in words so you could then check it a bit closer. I found there were two or three really good ones showing how to do it and each had some differences but in general the same idea.

the snow might be melting and running down the chimney behind that flashing if there is no stepflashing. perhaps the height of the snow gets water up in places where rain wouldnt tend to settle.

I have one minor leak , I think what happened is one pipe vent didnt' get sealed against my lead flashing around the pipe. when its nice Ill go up and put a pipe clamp around it then also wrap the joint with some stretchy butyl tape. Ive noticed it seems to only leak during heavy rain and the only water I see is in the basement. I think its runnning down the vent pipe. so I think the roof itself is ok. I left 1/3 of my roof since I ran out of holidays... so Ill be finishing that this year. for now some of my roofing in that area is on borrowed time.

If the chimney is in use it might be able to expel any water through it being warm but often people use modern heating and then the chimney doesn't get dry by it getting warm so perhaps one that is not really in use much should have a better cap. mine has a lid but some rain may go in if it is blowing rain.
I called in a sweep once. he was nice but I dont think he cleaned much and he didn't inspect much so maybe the expertise varies. when I found out how much crap was on my smoke shelf I felt he probably avoided some of the work he should have done. he did not go on the roof but did some scraping with special tools from inside and got only a small amount of debris out. I think it was collecting back there for years and I didn't' know such a gathering place existed. I got enough to fill a wheelbarrow ! you might get a camera up in there and take a pic yourself just to see what you can.

a fan will help a lot for the short term Id stick one in the attic or blowing up there to try to evaporate as much water as you can to avoid damage.

if you do go on the roof be careful. I did mine from the roof and I have a square brush I just used a hunk of conduit for a long handle. I also tied that to a rope so I couldn't drop it and loose it. one way is to tie a chain to the brush and then you may be able to pull it up and iuse the weight of the chain to pull it back down. the brush should really fit properly. mine was a little small but I was able to push it against the sides and I could see down there. most of the junk was on the smoke shelf not in the chimney.

evidently burning good dry wood helps, dont burn too much softwood or wet wood and that helps. they make those fireplace cleaning logs that you just burn but they seem a bit pricey for me.

[A.Fox]

Phil,

Thanks for the thoughts. The photos are from January of last year and the flashing on this chimney is now stepped and 8" tall. The only photos I have of it now are from the ground.

I'm pretty sure the pots are mortared in place and don't come off easily, which also suggests that there must not be a flue cap, and someone would be able to put a brush down through both openings. Every time I open a damper a few leaves and other debris fall into the firebox. I think my chimney construction is similar, the firebox slopes up toward the front then in brick slopes back before the clay tile flue starts I'm assuming above a smoke shelf, but I haven't reached my hand up there.

[phil]

It might be possible to put a light in up above the smoke shelf then peer down through the top to see inside.
I found my shop vac hose would fit so I just stuck it up above the smoke shelf and it really filled it up. I could sort of wag the hose around in there and focused on places where I could hear it working until I could no longer get more that way. my chop vac is plastic rigid one. of course this costs a filter. if your hose wont fit you might be able to stick a smaller hose inside the regular one. The chimney sweep came with a fancy vacuum cleaner. It was messier when I was raking the stuff up out of there. Id be tempted to get what you can out, then maybe call the roofers I guess walking on it requires some focus as to not break the tiles. I'm leaving my hook up there so I can use it if I need to go on the roof, no way I'm risking a fall. I think I can leave the hook protruding and roof over it and just seal around it. Roofers are usually fearless creatures but my concern with hiring is that any I approached were a bit flaky and didn't seem too interested. Many don't have insurance so if they do fall it might be a legal huge issue. I have to save where I can and everyone isn't in the same position financially. I try to work to what I call ACAP standards ( as cheap as possible) I did put a membrane first. Its like paper with a plastic backing, very tough paper basically. that helps me know it is sealed well and gives time to apply the roofing. the paper is cheap about 100 per roll and my whole roof took 2 rolls of it. I still used felt near the eves as well. I think most leaks occur near things like vents , the chimney etc. If I had to I'd put some runs of the membrane paper down and use cap nails rather than a tarp as a temporary fix to bide time for better weather, then fix it right when its not rainy.
you can't really nail to the tile maybe you can tuck stuff under it and lift off pieces to get some nails in there. I'm just thinking that one way to troubleshoot the problem could be to cover areas you think are issues and wait a bit to see what happens, that could prove or disprove certain areas where you think it its getting in. there are various membranes. some do the whole thing in rubber or some just use that where its flat or in valleys. the membrane that I have is BASF. I noticed IKO makes one too and there are various grades of it. the better stuff can last a few months with no roofing. I noted that after a month or so the plastic cap nails I used were going from green to white so perhaps the plastic degrades too but normally get covered in straight away. the membrane has nail placement marks about 8 inches apart so there are many hand driven cap nails. a lot of roofers dont use that many nails since the roofing gets nailed overtop. If you have to walk on it you don't want to be sliding down the roof because it came loose. I thought maybe the cap nails also give a wee bit of gap so that if water does get under my shingles it can dry up. a lot of the felt paper is made to be "breathable" for that reason.

probably what a roofer would do is remove the tile in some areas , put rubber membrane down , some has a sticky backing. then put the tiles back paying attention to where they thought it leaked. in valleys they run the membrane up the slope a bit so snow can't pile up and melt resulting in the water going under the membrane. the membrane isn't needed by code here except over the edges to prevent ice dams which we normally dont get here. I was lucky not to have any valleys.
In high wind areas some need more nails, some stick the shingles down near the gable ends of the roof with sealant from tubes, some don't. the codes vary by area. the membrane wasnt' necessary to meet code but its cheap insurance. I added flashings to get water from above the gutter into the gutters and also I put a 2x2 flashing with a drip edge over the edge of the gable ends. these are more options and some do , some dont use it. It helps keep the edges of the plywood dry but the code doesn't require it. all my fascia boards have a strip about 2" x 3/4" this is common. lots of that was punky so if I t was I put new stuff. I found my electrical mast had the wrong sized grommet and didn't fit the pipe well so water got under the tin cap thing and rotted the plywood there. I pieced in some new plywood to fix that. I used the same parts again but I wrapped the pipe with butyl tape then installed the rubber grommet then more tape to keep the water from getting back in there between the pipe and the grommet. I did this twice once for the cable once for the electrical mast since I have two masts that protrude the roof.
I thought about installing a ridge vent but opted to just use a few more of the typical 9x9 plastic vents. I at least put all new ones. I think it caused some heat loss but it's a funny science. so much depends on local weather, temps etc. my attic never did seem humid but it's a bit warm from the heat of the roof in the attic bedroom in summer so I guess venting is a trade off to some degree. If your attic feels moist it need fixing but not necessarily this month. I'd just opt to pump a bit more heat than usual until there is a good window to do repairs unless it seems like an emergency repair is needed. If you can fire up the fireplace that would be a help as it will warm that mass of brickwork up. you might be able to check if it is safe and then do that without risking going up on the roof. Its possible for a chimney to plug or for the creosote to catch fire if there is a lot of it. I think if it doesn't have doors, it is free burning and it isn't' on an outside wall so it has the warm house around it then it works better. ones that are choked off with glass doors or the stoves can have their draft closed so they burn longer but if you do that you make more creosote. the free burning ones make less creosote. many of the ones made past about the 40's were for show not heat but we are lucky to have good ones that actually do work. In this day and age that's a real bonus. Here its at a point where people chop down trees and offer the wood free because they dont have fireplaces anymore so that saves us money on heat.


I used to work in printing so we used a lot of aluminum plates , often about 30 " x 40"x .010" thick. I find that stuff is handy for temporary things as they will last enough and you can nail or staple through it easily.

[Gothichome]

Afox, looking at the picture of your cricket, it doesn’t appear to go all the way to edge of the chimney, could be just the picture. With your tiled roof I can see it being a hell of a task to get it sealed well. If I have my orientation correct I would still look hard at maybe pooling at the corner of the chimney. It would match up well to the location of your dampness.