Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

[phil]

another finish you may not have thought of is the kind they use commercially in stores and such, often over tile floors. I guess usually it's acrylic. It's usually what they use in hospitals and institutions where you have really high traffic and lots of abuse. they have the machines that you sit on and drive around and they can strip the stuff or build it up really thick if they do lots of layers. I was watching a guy do a local store and he showed up with this propane powered polisher/ buffer. it looked like a weed eater sort of so it would get in places others wouldn't. You'd need the equipment to do it but you could do the same as a store and hire the guy. they often put it on tile floors but it can go over pretty well anything. I noticed it being used in a care home where they had a wood floor and of course all the wheelchairs are pretty rough on floors. it can be renewed and it's super tough but the thickness of the finish is often done quite thick and might just look funny on a floor of an old house. but maybe in a kitchen , It is super tough and renewable. Epoxy is another also super tough, probably not the cheapest. It can be put down super thick in one coat as drying doesn't rely on off gassing. I wouldn't' consider doing either myself but these are in common use commercially because they are super tough.

for a rental I'd just put the cheapest laminate you can find and then pull it up when it is no longer a rental unless I know who was renting and they were super responsible.

[vvzz]

for a rental I'd just put the cheapest laminate you can find and then pull it up when it is no longer a rental unless I know who was renting and they were super responsible.

I actually always select best finishes for my rentals. Not because I care about tenants either(i would rent out doghouses to families if I could) But the labor is always the same(free), and better materials get you better tenants. And higher rents filter out all the riffraff. Also quality materials stand up to abuse much better anyway. Even scratched up hardwood floor looks better than brand new carpet or laminate.

[phil]

I worked really hard to get mine as flat and smooth and perfect as I could. but there is a drawback to that. You have to sand a bit more to get the surface nicer and there are only so many sandings.
a lot depends if you take your shoes off. The ice melt grit is pretty sharp. sometimes we have a 3 year old visitor. He's a great kid but He'll be off playing with cars and whatnot, Knocking about, just being three. Meanwhile I am in the other room cringing and not wanting to make a fuss but at the same time worried about the damage toll. There is something to be said for not getting too fussy. Area rugs help lots. Some people are just naturally more careful with things. Hand an adult an antique, some will handle it like it is made of nitro glycerine and others will handle the same item quite roughly, even collectors and restorers. I think it's the habits one develops.
an example.. I was showing a friend this collectable sewing machine that is in absolutely perfect shape and worth a thousand or two. he dropped the footpedal in the box in a rough manor as we were packing it . I actually found it really insulting. I bit my lip, but thought about it more later. Some people just respect objects more and others just dont' care in the same way. Probably people with an appreciation for antiques respect them more. I find visitors often dont' really even think about the fact that the floor is not cheap laminate and it should go without saying it requires a little respect. I dont; even think it necessarily has to do with wealth or upbringing so much , some just handle the same objects a lot more roughly.

I always find that interesting. One could probably do a simple test and by just handing people the same antique and having someone turn it upside down and set it down , I bet you could identify the person that was most rough and least rough and that would be pretty consistent in all they touch because they are just sort of habits.

[Kashka-Kat]

Hi Phil, in answer to your earlier post "varnish" is just a generic term for clear wood finish that has more solids/resins in it that build up and sit on the surface more (shellac, poly, alkyd, etc)... as opposed to a pure oil ( linseed etc) which absorbs. At least that's how I meant it.

Then of course lots of finishes are both, with some being more oil than varnish.... or vice versa.

Of course its all opinion on these old house forums and people just have to make up their own minds. Im one who likes to research things to death, I want to sift through all the pros and cons anf know possible pitfalls before I proceed..... I assume others do as well

I just thought the WL would look particularly beautiful on a rustic softwood plank floor like that - certainly have no objection to poly, in fact got great results using Bona Deeptone recently on my own old fir floors that had poly on from previous owner which couldnt be completely removed w/o going thru the tongue and groove. Once you have poly on you are pretty much committed to it being poly in the future, unless you sand deep to remove it all from deep within the grain. Which is something for OP to consider

[Gothichome]

Kasha Kat, I tend to research things to death as well. Don't know if I'm getting any smarter though. VVYZ, I have decided to stay away from the poly and other modern top coats. I like the idea of being able to make local repairs as needed.

[vvzz]

I'm leaning toward waterlox too, but apparently MA is one of those states with stupid VOC requirements. I just hate govt so much Waterlox doesn't ship gallons here either. Going to try to see if I can at least get a gallon of VOC compliant stuff somewhere.

[Texas_Ranger]

I suspect chemically Waterlox isn't too far from a traditional finish and that's why you have issues with VOC requirements. The last time I oiled a floor I used Bona floor oil which seems to be mainly linseed oil. You're supposed to drench the wood until it can't absorb any more liquid and once the wood pores are full of oil they can't absorb any water or dirt so that's what's protecting the wood. It's a gruesome job though, wading in pools of oil and adding oil every 30 minutes or so because old floors just soak it up like crazy. There's also a German company called Natural and their oil is supposed to be even better because it's applied hot but that requires special tools, a pad sander/polisher with built-in heater.

In the hall and dining room we used acrylic one-component floor finishes, Bona in the hall and Tiger (Austrian) in the dining room. The Bona fared well for about ten years, then it started to wear off near the front door where you drag in dirt, water and grit in winter. The Tiger was utter crap though, within less than five years it was gone in all high-traffic spots even though the dining room is strictly no-shoes. The can might have been old though, we bought it on clearance when a small local store closed.

The big advantage with penetrating oil is that it doesn't chip. Traditional finishes form a hard layer on top of the wood and if the wood is dented that layer just splinters off and leaves bare wood. That's particularly common with softer species like spruce.

[phil]

Ive used both of these with success. ( see link)
the thread mentions the weeping issue. You can expect a bit of that after the initial soaking and dry down, you will see it weep. some of the replies aren't' accurate. one guy thinks it is polyurethane, it isn't.


http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2895

If I get any stickiness, I just add some turpentine and continue. after that the successive coats need dry time. I allow a day then two days etc until I am happy. then you have the option to use polyurethane or to just keep using the oil. the combination should prevent any separation of the poly if you choose to use that. the oil soaks into the wood pores and dries and the poly clings really well to that. If you use colored stuff or add oil based stain you can. I wouldn't add much and I wouldn't use anything but the clear stuff on the first coat or two. After two or three coats you can put it on with sandpaper and work it in if you have the patience you can get a really nice finish this way. I assume you can do the same with other oils like tung etc. with the oils you are building the shine by filling all the voids near the surface of the wood, when they fill up the surface gets a smooth shiny feel. the oil pops the grain and usually makes the wood look nice. You can use poly to lock that in or just maintain the oil finish. If you use sandpaper to apply the oil it will pick up microscopic particles and they will get lodged in microscopic voids and you can build the nicest finish like that. the look of the wood in this case isn't really obscured. if you use poly it has a bit of an amber color. the wood will still darken. some of the coatings have UV blockers and they will prevent the floor from darkening from UV and in general with older homes this darkening is desirable. no matter what you put on top if you add a clear coating , poly , shellac etc you can add a tint. this won't obscure the wood too much but any color you add between the surface and you will block the view of the wood and tend to hide the grain. some woods have lovely grain patterns and I think it is usually desirable to be able to see the ribbon in the grain. with a good finish as you walk by it will have sort of a 3D effect especially certain woods. Knotty maple has lovely grain and lots of ribbon for example but straight pine won't have so much, but all woods have some character and part of a good finish is protecting the wood but what you use also has an effect on the look and feel. an oil finish isn't too durable but it looks beautiful because you aren't obscuring the grain. I like the oil on things like handrails that you touch and the oil in your hands helps maintain them. If you put poly on a handrail it may then have sort of a squeaky feel as it is a non porous surface.

as I work on trim etc I use the oil because it is easy. it does take a few coats so I try to prepare a couple weeks ahead to get the initial coats down. once it is installed it can be maintained with oil but then you have to mask around it to prevent getting the oil on the walls. I like to get 3 or 4 coats on before I install it if I have time to.

there are lots of other products or you have trouble with availability you could probably just use linseed oil, turpentine and optionally maybe a touch of japan driers.

you really have to find out what you can get and those are your options but I'd try to speak to floor finishers, woodwork shops or suppliers for woodwork shops, they may be able to sell you products that work well or better but I dont' think you'll find anything good in the box stores. I think Home depot dropped it here as well. If you still have trouble getting it I'd see if you might find older stuff on Craigslist or if you have discount paint stores that might still have old stock. you might find it in habitat for humanity or somewhere like that. I haven't seen any issues from storage except it will dry up if not sealed but I have used 10 year old cans with no issues.

if you use poly and the wood is soft it will still dent. it wears very well but that is a factor. you can re-coat the poly with a scuff sand if it gets scratched up but the only way to remove it is to sand the whole floor. Your floor, your choice. Shellac might be a contender. Not so hard wearing but it washes off easy if you use alcohol or lacquer thinner. If you wipe more on it will melt into the old finish so you can build, repair or remove the Shellac. lacquer works the same but it isn't a common floor finish, its a bit brittle.
hardness and toughness are two different things. poly is a very tough finish so if you have lots of people tracking water in and walking in their shoes that will protect the floor better.
shellac and Lacquer wont' stand up as well to chemicals, some cleaners and stuff might affect the others. If you spill an alcoholic drink it can melt lacquer or shellac. Poly on the other hand can't be easily dissolved. every solution is a trade off. shellac isn't too hard to sand, but fresh poly stays in a semi plastic state for a couple weeks and gradually becomes tougher and harder. You can't easily sand it during that time or it will ball up on the sandpaper. What you can do is wet sand it by dipping the paper in paint thinner. You want three coats in one day. If you just did one coat it would look the same but wouldn't be nearly as tough so sometimes you need to knock a drip or something down before it's hardened in order to get the three coats to chemically knit. I think some people dont' put enough on, if you don't have a suitable thickness you might set yourself up for disappointment. the oil is the easiest.

you could also look into the water based poly or there are some that are UV cured. I don't know how well suited the UV cured ones are for home use but maybe it is just a matter of renting the lights. the water based ones may also raise the grain on the first coat. I'm not sure if you can re-coat either of those. I wouldn't use anything you can't re-coat but you can with the poly, you just can't wash it off.

[vvzz]

So yesterday I bit the bullet and ordered 2 gallons of Waterlox original + 1 gallon of satin. On Amazon and it looks like they shipped it without carrying about stupid state rules!!!

[phil]

perfect so you can get it , that's good news.