How far from the ceiling is the picture rail usually installed?

[Gothichome]

To keep my post uncluttered with commentary and additional math, I didn't make a few remarks you or others might be wondering and I feel should be mentioned.

The ideal ratios can vary depending on if one considers the Greek or the Roman proportions for Corinthian, Doric, and Ionic. The Greeks tended not to use tall pedestals (which would pretty much eliminate the chair rail).

Also, the above ratios (that constitute the 19 parts) works best with taller ceilings (especially in regards to chair rail height).

The same considerations could be applied to determine the ideal height of the baseboard, too, but baseboards and plinth blocks seem to come in standard sizes (now) but, in older, grander homes one tends to see well proportioned (taller) of both. I've conducted some informal surveys and was surprised to learn many homes do follow deVignola fairly well.

Ah, yes the golden ratios and their variations, they seem to have been forgotten in modern construction. And that's why a modern built old houses never achieve the look and feel of the originals they are trying to emulate.
I read some were in the past that back in antiquity they would build large columns with a ever so slight bulge in the middle to fool the eye into seeing them as as perfect from a distance, knowing, that from a distance these large columns would apear to the eye as narrowing in the middle if built as straight columns. Comments.

[Corsetière]

My house was build somewhere around 1890-1900, I believe (still researching, local courthouse burnt down in 1930). After I removed the wallpaper, I could see very clear shadows on the plaster where the picture rail was and the height varied from room to room. The Master Bedroom began 18 inches down from the ceiling, a smaller bedroom's started at 16", the entry way and parlor - 19".

[StoneHouseGuy]

Rather than paint the picture rail - gild it (gold paint or gold leaf). even in a plain room the gold is a great and more natural looking element.

[phil]

I liked this picture , the color of the ceiling. it is difficult to gauge the color exactly but it inspired me.
we picked a grey that is similar. I think it has some brown undertones but it isn't a blueish grey. then something close to Gin fizz for the walls.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23 ... 9b1929.jpg

I remembered that in the bedroom the picture rail height seemed to coincide with the trapezoid piece of casing above the windows. it seemed to intersect it near the top of the ==/ shape.. if that makes sense.

that was about 19 1/4" I figured so I drew a line at that height and painted the ceiling grey that color. Now I will do at least one more coat and then do the green. Then I will see how the colors react. i didn't really want ot spring for the samples. $20 each.. so I just bought a gallon of each. The boss was ok with the color so I bought a second gallon. Ill do the same with the walls. it should take about 3 gallons but I just bought one for the first coat.

I really didn't want the chair rail to be painted but I got a bunch that is some white wood for free. I can do the painting first, then hide the line with the molding later. I was thinking maybe I could try spome faux woodgrain to imitate fir but I dont' know how successful that might be. other options are to go buy fir ones or buy the blades to cut my own perhaps. I have some long baseboards that could provide material.

Gold might look ok. I could try a sample with just gold paint and a stick and if I like that perhaps look into gilding.

the height works out so if I decide to frame in the two entrance openings ( doorways without door) it will run above their casings if they are added. It never had casings there but I think I might put a glass door between the 4x8 entrance"vestibule" and the living area which is 22 x 13'
I stuck a temporary door in the entrance way from the hall when I was drywalling. it is about the right size for a door and I'm not sure if my living room should have a door or not.
the math helped as I had imagined I would be at about 14 inches like I saw with the shadow in one of the bedrooms but I am now thinking this height is also coordinated with the window height which might explain a difference room to room?

the entrance way seems to have a light shadow that might be from an doorway and I was thinking of adding a glass door with divided panes . I have 4 to pick from, all were free on Craigslist so I might make up some sidelights that match the door. my windows have a diamond leaded pattern on the upper lights but the doors have square panels 5x7" approximately. I guess they could work together it would be harder to find a door with the diamond pattern.

the entrance way has an air return and there is another in my hallway which joins all rooms on the main floor. . as you pass that and go through the place where I am imagining the door (that doesn't exist) there is a heat vent a couple feet from that. It seemed like maybe the heat vent shouldn't be 5 feet from the air return so a doorway might help. that would force the air to find its way to the hall rather than taking the short route just feet away. I'm thinking the forced air might have been planned and later they opened the doorway up. Basically it caused a "short circuit"

I'll post pics soon, once I have the first coat of green on. I have a couple of painting questions but Ill make a separate post.

Phil

[HBLondon]

Hi there, I'm new to the forum having found it as its the only source I can find related to picture rails. Let me know if there is a 'introduce yourself' thread.

I'm actually based in UK and have recently bought an old school boarding house that was built in 1810. The building was divided into 2 residences about 100 years later. As a boarding house (for the Quakers who did not believe in extravagance) there are few features, except lovely high ceilings, big windows, wooden floors and simple fireplaces.

There are picture rails in most rooms but many to me just look odd, obviously added later and maybe even quite recently. They are lined up with the height of the top of the door, which often divides the large windows at mid-height. I think they are generally a nice feature so I'd like to either keep them or replace them but I'm unsure whether to move them to the heights of the calculations provided by earlier in the thread from @olson185.

I've attempted to add a pic of one of the rooms where it looks wrong to me. Any advice gratefully received!

picture rail.png (892.59 KiB) Viewed 1290 times

[Gothichome]

HB, welcome to the District, you have dug well into the archives for this thread. I like to use the general rule of five for these sort of things. Divide the hight into five and place things on the wall in those proportions. Picture rail in my view would be four fifths up the wall, chair rails and wainscoting one to two fifths up a wall depending on your preference unless of course your after a Craftsman look, paneling as high as four fifths.
The pictures can be hung at any hight you chose.
You can ask your question to these folks if you like, old home folks like us only in the UK.
http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/index.php

Ron

[HBLondon]

Thanks! Yes it was the power of google finding the link. Generally not much info online.

I'll try both the proportions of 5 and the calculations on 19 parts and what looks best.

Also thanks so much for the UK forum link, I've registered. That will be helpful for the other 300+ topics I seem to think of every day

[Manalto]

Welcome, HB!

I didn't read through this thread in its entirety so I don't know if this variation has been already mentioned, but in my house (1919) the picture rail is just a small bit (less than 1") down from the ceiling. Of course, the narrow space above the molding was painted the same color as the ceiling, which I will retain.

I like Ron's suggestion of the 'rule of fifths' and another thing to consider is the molding's relation to windows and doorways. Would you want to consider aligning your picture molding with the top of your window trim?

It appears from the variety of responses that there is a fair amount of leeway in the positioning of the rail. I agree with you that the current placement - bisecting the windows - looks a bit awkward.

How nice that you only have 300 questions per day. I strive for the day when I can get down to that number.

[HBLondon]

I've seen examples of picture rails right at the top of the wall. That wouldn't look right in my house because the ceilings are so high. But definitely think they need to be higher than the current position. Someone at some point decided they should be positioned with the top of the door, which is just odd.

How nice that you only have 300 questions per day. I strive for the day when I can get down to that number.

haha Thanks both.

[phil]

the way it meets the parting bead of your windows seems right to me.
I dont think it's a coincidence that the division in height is made at the same height from the floor as the parting bead of your windows.
It appears to me your trim got painted in like mine did and that removed the contrast. One way to restore that is to strip the paint , another way is to use faux painting. You may also find the trim was indeed painted in from the start.
My gut feeling is that the trim was wood with a clear finish and when that was lost, so was the contrast that was intended.

Likewise, in my house there is a height in which it is half way up the side windows , which are casement windows and that also works out to 2/3 up where the doublehung windows part. I also found that is the height where the scratch coat of plaster ended and the finished lath began. It was finished plaster above eye level. That told me the wall was originally covered with some sort of wainscot from eye level to the floor.

all had been lost to modernization which included drywall on top of my plaster, , and I re-drywalled the room after tearing it all out to insulate.

I took out the baseboards and casings to refinish them since someone had painted all that and I'm reinstalling the baseboards but adding a 1/2" spacer along behind to thicken them up to about 1/1/4". that's so the thickness of the wainscot won't bury the baseboard. what will eventually will reveal is just the 3/4" baseboard and the 1/2" strip will be hidden.


I will then apply a wainscot up to eye level height and I plan to also add a shelf about 17" from the ceiling to display old radios and other collectables. I did the walls in a green and the ceiling a pale grey. I made the division at 17" from the ceiling which will coincide with my shelf.

one consideration is how the shelf will coincide with the upper casings of the windows or if I can continue the shelf just above that I dont really want the shelf to appear it is being held up by the casing or interfere with it too much but I also dont want to restrict the height too much. I might choose to lower the shelf and interrupt it at the window.

I'm still basically sorting it out and I have a thread about making flooring into wainscot. Right now I'm still sanding and refinishing and applying 1/2" strips to the back of all the baseboards. It's an ongoing fussy little fitting job so I've been picking away at it.
when that is complete I plan to put 1/4" plywood up to eye level and then put strips of about 1/4" fir with a V groove pattern where they meet. this will mimic the common 3/4" fir T and G wainscot but save about half the material. Once upon a time 3/4" T and G knot free edge grain old growth fir wainscot was cheap and common but now it is a lot of rather expensive wood. with the wainscot cap ( which I plan as about a 6" wide shelf at eye level) you wont be able to tell visually that the wainscot is actually 1/4" thick and not 3/4 thick.

I included a pic of my living room after I stripped the lath and insulated and you can sort of see how half way up the casement window is also lining up with the division of the bay windows.

the other pics were ones, I think Lily found , and I'm not trying to copy what is there exactly but they inspired me. The wainscot in these rooms is higher than the fairly common chair rail height and it has quite an effect on the visual impact. both of these old pictures seem to divide the wall into thirds. one has a shelf that is similar to what I am planning.

I'm basically trying to recreate what I cant' see and adding my interpretation for what is missing. I'm also on a fairly busy street and with no insulation it was loud. I used special sound proof drywall and really sealed it up. . I still have a certain amount of traffic sound coming through the unrestored windows but I can tackle that later.

I want to keep the basic craftsman style and keep it fairly simple but also to bring back some of the woodwork as its just something you wont see in new homes, Its often all painted over in old houses, by this point because it only takes one owner with a paintbrush to really spoil things. If you open a book about interior decorating, or watch the daytime TV reno dramas the trend is to paint it all white and put the kitchen in the living room, add plastic windows. some feel this is a destructive path as it also removes a lot of the look and feel and the intended proportions.

adding the woodwork back will probably improve the acoustics of my living room and maybe even block a little more sound. I intend to use a clear finish but no stain and the fir tends to take on a sort of an orange look and it will match the flooring. The wood can also darken the room and I don't really want it to look like a dark parlor.

if you wanted you could do similar and maybe do wainscot from the baseboard up to a more normal chair rail height like 30- 36" , or so.
MDF wainscot is a lot cheaper than real wood so some do that if they want it painted. what I did in my kitchen was used that ( to save cost) and instead of trying to do faux painting I painted it a sort of tangerine color that imitates the color of the surrounding woodwork, and I restored the rest of the woodwork by stripping it and refinishing the wood.